Wikipedia talk:Vital articles/Level/5/History and geography#Add Barbarian 5

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The purpose of this discussion page is to select 50,000 topics for which Wikipedia should have high-quality articles.

Any article currently on this list may be challenged. The discussion is open to the following rules:

{{Vital article level 5 rules}}

The following link represent all current Level 5 Vital articles that are classified as History and Geography subjects:

{{See|Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/History}}

{{See|Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/Geography/Physical}}

{{See|Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/Geography/Countries}}

{{See|Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/Geography/Cities}}

{{VA link|Frisia}}; Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/Geography/Countries#Germany. Good example of the sort of article we lack.

;Support

1. As nom. J947 ‡ ^edits 06:21, 19 February 2025 (UTC)
2. Per nom. Makkool (talk) 14:23, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Neutral

1. Regions risk going far over quota if we add all African provinces proposed below. Lophotrochozoa (talk) 17:03, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

;Discussion

I don't dislike the idea, but would Frisians be better? Both/either would be OK, but Frisians is in more languages, has refs, more page views, looks like it gets more attention. (I am not opposing this, in fact I am considering supporting.)  Carlwev  01:26, 25 February 2025 (UTC)

1. Frisians would belong to Culture/Ethnology. We have many pairs of a nation and their homeland, like {{VA link|Bengalis}} and {{VA link|Bengal}} for example. Makkool (talk) 14:23, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

{{VA link|German Bight}}; oceanic seas is an area where many (most?) of the articles at VA5 are also VA4. I think adding this sea is a decent idea looking towards making the VA5 makeup more balanced.

;Support

1. As nom. J947 ‡ ^edits 06:23, 19 February 2025 (UTC)
2. Per nom. Makkool (talk) 14:23, 6 March 2025 (UTC)
3. Lophotrochozoa (talk) 14:23, 20 May 2025 (UTC)
4. Bluevestman (talk) 20:12, 20 June 2025 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Discussion

{{collapse top|title=|The 32 Scottish council areas in order of population are:}}

• Glasgow (city) – 622,820 - already listed at level 4
• Edinburgh (city) – 514,990 - already listed at level 4
• Fife – 371,340
• North Lanarkshire – 340,930 - If the historic county of Lanarkshire existed today it would most likely be vital but since its split it has basically become a part of Glasgow (see Greater Glasgow). It also previously included Glasgow so there is too match overlap.
• South Lanarkshire – 327,430 - see above explanation
• Aberdeenshire – 263,750 - Aberdeenshire (historic) previously included Aberdeen so there is too match overlap. Also see Highland explanation.
• Highland (council area) – 235,710 - the Scottish Highlands and Inverness are both already at level 5 so there is too match overlap. The Highlands also include parts of the council areas of Aberdeenshire, Angus, Scotland, Argyll and Bute, Moray, North Ayrshire, Perth and Kinross, Stirling (council area) and West Dunbartonshire.
• Aberdeen (city) – 224,190 - already listed as level 5
• West Lothian – 181,720 - borders Edinburgh so there is some overlap
• Renfrewshire – 184,340 - location of Glasgow Airport so there is some overlap with Glasgow
• Falkirk (council area) – 158,450
• Perth and Kinross – 151,120 - see Highland explanation.
• Dumfries and Galloway – 145,770
• Dundee (city) – 148,350 - already listed at level 5
• North Ayrshire – 133,490 - see Highland explanation.
• East Ayrshire – 120,390
• Angus, Scotland – 114,660 - historically included Dundee so there is too match overlap. Also see Highland explanation.
• Scottish Borders – 116,820
• South Ayrshire – 111,560
• East Dunbartonshire – 108,980
• East Lothian – 112,450
• Moray – 94,280 - see Highland explanation.
• East Renfrewshire – 97,160
• Stirling (council area) – 92,530 - was previously covered by Stirling at level 5 until it was removed in January 2025. Also see Highland explanation.
• Midlothian – 97,030 - Midlothian (historic) previously included Edinburgh so there is too match overlap.
• West Dunbartonshire – 88,270 - see Highland explanation.
• Argyll and Bute – 87,920
• Inverclyde – 78,340
• Clackmannanshire – 51,750
• Outer Hebrides/Na h-Eileanan Siar (islands) – 26,120 - already listed as level 5
• Shetland Islands (islands) – 23,020 - already listed as level 5
• Orkney (islands) – 22,020 - already listed as level 5

{{collapse bottom}}

The terms "Central Lowlands" and "Southern Uplands" are historical/geographical terms that are rarely used in everyday conversations which can be seen by the [https://pageviews.wmcloud.org/?project=en.wikipedia.org&platform=all-access&agent=user&redirects=0&start=2015-07-01&end=2025-02-22&pages=Central_Lowlands%7CCentral_Belt%7CFife%7CScottish_Highlands%7CSouthern_Uplands%7CLothian%7CLanarkshire%7CScottish_Borders%7CAberdeenshire%7CGreater_Glasgow pageviews] in which the terms "Central Belt" and "Greater Glasgow" get more pageviews. However, I believe it makes sense to swap them with Fife as it also includes the city of Dunfermline which is somewhat close to being vital as the de facto capital of the Kingdom of Scotland, as well as the important but not vital towns of Kirkcaldy, Glenrothes and St Andrews (the location of the University of St Andrews which is at level 5). All Ceremonial counties of England are already listed at level 5 with five of them having lower populations than that of Fife (Northumberland, Herefordshire, Isle of Wight, Rutland and the City of London), so population shouldn't be an issue. Fife also gets [https://pageviews.wmcloud.org/?project=en.wikipedia.org&platform=all-access&agent=user&redirects=0&start=2015-07-01&end=2025-02-22&pages=Fife%7CNorthumberland%7CHerefordshire%7CRutland%7CCity_of_London%7CIsle_of_Wight more pageviews] than two of the English ceremonial counties previously mentioned (Herefordshire and Rutland) and so that also shouldn't be an issue.

;Support

1. As nom. Sahaib (talk) 18:49, 23 February 2025 (UTC)
2. Lophotrochozoa (talk) 15:39, 16 May 2025 (UTC)
3. Per nom. {{ping|Sahaib}} would listing {{VA link|Scottish Lowlands}} as well be a good option? It has many more views than Central Lowlands and Southern Uplands and is the natural complement to {{VA link|Scottish Highlands}}. J947 ‡ ^edits 23:08, 18 June 2025 (UTC)
4. :{{Reply|J947}} The only problem is that 80% of the population live in the Scottish Lowlands (according to [https://www.britannica.com/place/Lowlands-region-Scotland this]). There is also a Highland (council area) (which covers most of the region) but there isn't a Lowland council. Sahaib (talk) 23:28, 18 June 2025 (UTC)
5. Bluevestman (talk) 20:13, 20 June 2025 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Discussion

Another surprising omission. We have been having gaps in significant historical regions. {{VA link|East Prussia}} has more interwikis, but it seems to be more about the former province of Germany. That should better belong in History then? I think this article is the best one to include in Geography.

;Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 10:07, 28 February 2025 (UTC)
2. We list {{VA link|Prussia}} and {{VA link|Kingdom of Prussia}} but I think it's fine to be redundant here. Aurangzebra (talk) 19:13, 28 February 2025 (UTC)
3. Lophotrochozoa (talk) 12:28, 18 May 2025 (UTC)
4. Per nom, a surprising omission. J947 ‡ ^edits 23:10, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Discussion

I propose we add some of the other regions of (ancient) Israel that we are currently missing. We already list {{VA link|Galilee}} and {{VA link|Golan Heights}} at least. These regions are important historically and are also the area where the Bible takes place.

The historical central region of the land of Israel.

;Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 20:07, 7 March 2025 (UTC)
2. _pbp 20:25, 10 March 2025 (UTC)
3. Lophotrochozoa (talk) 16:21, 18 May 2025 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Discussion

A region consisting of ten Hellenistic cities in the land of Israel, and was the center Hellenistic and Roman culture in the area.

;Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 20:07, 7 March 2025 (UTC)
2. Lophotrochozoa (talk) 16:55, 22 May 2025 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Discussion

{{atopg|status=passed|result=Added 4-0 Lophotrochozoa (talk) 22:03, 5 May 2025 (UTC)}}

The mountaneous region of Levant, centered around the city of Jerusalem.

;Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 20:07, 7 March 2025 (UTC)
2. _pbp 20:24, 10 March 2025 (UTC)
3.  Carlwev  11:04, 14 March 2025 (UTC)
4. Most famous of the ones proposed here. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 13:12, 22 April 2025 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Discussion

{{abot}}

A region of Transjordan, east of Judea and Samaria.

;Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 20:07, 7 March 2025 (UTC)

;Oppose

1. With all the proposed additions of African provinces, regions will be over quota. Lophotrochozoa (talk) 16:44, 27 May 2025 (UTC)

;Discussion

Short-lived Soviet during the Chinese Civil War. Part of the larger Chinese Soviet Republic

;Support

1. As nom. Weak support for a swap with the CSR. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 15:29, 12 March 2025 (UTC)
2. Per nom. Makkool (talk) 16:51, 12 March 2025 (UTC)
3. Support swap, more confident on the removal than the addition. {{VA link|Soviet (council)}} is another potential addition. J947 ‡ ^edits 23:12, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Neutral

1. Add {{VA link|Chinese Soviet Republic}} regardless of whether we remove {{VA link|Jiangxi Soviet}}. Lophotrochozoa (talk) 17:14, 18 May 2025 (UTC)

;Discuss

All of these are former portions of other cities that are already listed at VA5. In comparison to other geographical features (particularly their parent cities), they have relatively few interwikis. These were rented out (at gunpoint) to foreign powers, in some cases not for very long. The concept of Treaty port is more important than any one treaty port. _pbp 01:31, 14 March 2025 (UTC)

;Support

1. _pbp 01:31, 14 March 2025 (UTC)
2. : EchoVanguardZ (talk) 17:46, 16 March 2025 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE. J947 ‡ ^edits 23:15, 18 June 2025 (UTC)
3. Lophotrochozoa (talk) 00:26, 25 March 2025 (UTC)
4. Weak support per nom. J947 ‡ ^edits 23:15, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Discussion

{{atopg|status=passed|result=swapped 4-0 Lophotrochozoa (talk) 11:40, 12 June 2025 (UTC)}}

Bioko is about 40x more populated than Príncipe but it is not listed. Both of them, along with {{vital article link|São Tomé Island}} and Annobón make up the broader Cameroon line.

;Support

1. As nom. Sahaib (talk) 16:21, 18 March 2025 (UTC)
2. EchoVanguardZ (talk) 05:45, 20 March 2025 (UTC)
3. Lophotrochozoa (talk) 15:06, 26 May 2025 (UTC)
4. Idiosincrático (talk) 07:48, 2 June 2025 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Discuss

{{abot}}

{{atopg|status=passed|result=Added 4-0 Lophotrochozoa (talk) 12:17, 12 June 2025 (UTC)}}

Casamance is a geographical region that includes 3 of the 14 administrative Regions of Senegal (Kolda region, Sédhiou region, Ziguinchor region). It is unique in that it is one of the few geographic regions that is not itself an administrative region (the others are much more obscure like Petite Côte). Whilst its main city {{vital article link|Ziguinchor}} is listed, the region itself should also be listed due to it being ethnically/culturally/historically different from the rest of the country as it is separated by the Gambia (see also Casamance conflict).

;Support

1. As nominator. Sahaib (talk) 22:04, 25 March 2025 (UTC)
2. Lophotrochozoa (talk) 20:05, 19 May 2025 (UTC)
3. Seems pretty important. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:11, 20 May 2025 (UTC)
4. Idiosincrático (talk) 07:49, 2 June 2025 (UTC)

{{abot}}

Kingdom of Strathclyde gets more [https://pageviews.wmcloud.org/?project=en.wikipedia.org&platform=all-access&agent=user&redirects=0&start=2015-07-01&end=2025-03-28&pages=Kingdom_of_Strathclyde%7CScotland_in_the_Middle_Ages pageviews] and has more language links. Not sure why Scotland in the Middle Ages is even listed, since England in the Middle Ages is not listed.

;Support

1. As nominator. Sahaib (talk) 12:58, 29 March 2025 (UTC)
2. Weak support. Lophotrochozoa (talk) 17:23, 26 May 2025 (UTC)
3. Per nom. We list {{VA link|Kingdom of Alba}} and {{VA link|Kingdom of Scotland}}. J947 ‡ ^edits 23:18, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Discussion

Major city in Kenya, which is currently underrepresented with only 4 cities and over 50 million in poopulation.

;Support

1. Nom Iostn (talk) 22:41, 4 April 2025 (UTC)
2. Lophotrochozoa (talk) 14:51, 14 May 2025 (UTC)
3. Idiosincrático (talk) 07:49, 2 June 2025 (UTC)
4. Per nom. J947 ‡ ^edits 23:21, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Discuss

A UNESCO WHS, part of Jeju Volcanic Island and Lava Tubes. Considered a sacred mountain to Jeju and Korean people. Major tourist attraction. Add to Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/Geography/Physical#Mountain peaks. Article has 43 language versions and more views than Mount Asama, Mount Hotakadake, and Mount Kita, for starters. More language editions than some of those pages too. More views than other pages like Avachinsky, Ismoil Somoni Peak, Klyuchevskaya Sopka, Koryaksky, Sahand, Peak Pobeda (Sakha), and more.

;Support

1. As nominator seefooddiet (talk) 00:45, 19 April 2025 (UTC)
2. Lophotrochozoa (talk) 19:57, 16 May 2025 (UTC)
3. Weak support – not that tall but we could do with a South Korean mountain. On a different note, do we need all of {{VA link|Jeju Island}}, {{VA link|Jeju Province}}, and {{VA link|Jeju City}}? J947 ‡ ^edits 23:27, 18 June 2025 (UTC)
4. :I think maybe Jeju City could get demoted. Its importance pretty strongly overlaps with the other two.
5. :Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/Geography/Countries all the other SK provinces are in 5, maybe weak supporting argument for Jeju Province staying in. Argument against Jeju City, not all South Korean cities are in Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/Geography/Cities.
6. :For Jeju Island, that article is about the natural features of the island. By contrast, Jeju Province is about the administrative division that includes Jeju Island and several other islands nearby.
7. :Jeju Island's natural features are what makes it most notable imo; that's what made UNESCO recognize it, and it's of interest to volcanologists. grapesurgeon (seefooddiet) (talk) 23:41, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Discuss

A brief war with high casualty estimates that ended the {{vital article link|Ayutthaya Kingdom}}.

;Support

1. As nominator. Sahaib (talk) 18:46, 25 April 2025 (UTC)
2. Lophotrochozoa (talk) 15:48, 18 May 2025 (UTC)
3. More Asian history is always good. It's a bit shocking that {{VA link|Sino-Burmese War}} is VA4 though – seems far too weak. J947 ‡ ^edits 23:31, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Discussion

{{VA link|San Francisco Peninsula}} is already covered by {{VA link|San Francisco Bay Area}} and {{VA link|San Francisco Bay}}. Its geography makes it stand out on maps, but I think this is over coverage, as it's one part of a metropolitan area which is already covered (also by {{VA link|San Francisco}} and {{VA link|Silicon Valley}}) and which has a strong regional identity.

;Support

:As nominator. EchoVanguardZ (talk) 19:47, 2 May 2025 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE. J947 ‡ ^edits 23:32, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

1. Lophotrochozoa (talk) 19:55, 26 May 2025 (UTC)
2. J947 ‡ ^edits 23:32, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Discussion

{{atopg|status=passed|resullt=Removed 4-0 Lophotrochozoa (talk) 13:38, 12 June 2025 (UTC)}}

{{VA link|Republic of Artsakh}} was dissolved in 2023. It is covered by {{VA link|Nagorno-Karabakh}} and {{VA link|Nagorno-Karabakh conflict}}. It was also not large, as its population was listed at 145,053 in 2015.

;Support

1. As nominator. EchoVanguardZ (talk) 19:52, 2 May 2025 (UTC)
2. Lophotrochozoa (talk) 18:15, 14 May 2025 (UTC)
3. Short-lived breakaway state, it can be covered by the conflict article. QuicoleJR (talk) 11:47, 16 May 2025 (UTC)
4. Idiosincrático (talk) 07:50, 2 June 2025 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Discussion

{{abot}}

{{atopg|status=passed|result=Removed 4-0 Lophotrochozoa (talk) 17:31, 12 June 2025 (UTC)}}

This is a form of municipality in South Africa. These municipalities are within a province like any other municipality The article is mostly a short list, and I'm not seeing why this needs special coverage. It also doesn't have an article on any of the non-English languages of South Africa.

;Support

1. As nominator. EchoVanguardZ (talk) 20:01, 2 May 2025 (UTC)
2. I'm not seeing why we should list this. The slot could be better used to represent more countries. QuicoleJR (talk) 18:26, 16 May 2025 (UTC)
3. Didn't we previously decide to remove this kind of lists? Lophotrochozoa (talk) 19:05, 16 May 2025 (UTC)
4. Idiosincrático (talk) 07:50, 2 June 2025 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Discussion

{{abot}}

The coverage in Africa on Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/Geography/Countries seems random. Why do a few countries (Egypt, Ethiopia, Nigeria, South Africa, Somalia) get coverage of all their subdivisions while others get almost nothing or nothing? If it's supposed to be based on population, it's not proportional. For example, Tanzania (which gets none) is more populous than South Africa (which gets 9) and over three times as populous as Somalia (which gets 5/6). If it's based on something else, we should decide on what that is, to avoid systemic bias.

Here is a table of the contents of "Regions and country subdivisions". This is just for reference, I'm not saying coverage should necessarily be based directly on population or area.

:A reasonable explanation is that many political regions of Africa are recently created, while many in Europe go back farther in time. Additionally, Europe used to have a higher proportion of the word population historically before the industrial revolution compared to today. This does not mean it should be the same as Asia proportionally, but food for thought. -1ctinus📝🗨 13:17, 18 May 2025 (UTC)

Really confused how this hasn't been nominated yet when every other city has double digit interwikis.

;Support

1. Bluevestman (talk) 20:00, 4 May 2025 (UTC)
2. It's somewhat populous, but given [https://www.google.com/maps/place/Siddhirganj,+Narayanganj,+Bangladesh/ its location] between {{VA link|Dhaka}} and {{VA link|Narayanganj}} not vital. J947 ‡ ^edits 23:38, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Discuss

:I don't think a city should be removed merely for having the least interwikis. EchoVanguardZ (talk) 19:11, 16 May 2025 (UTC)

::Every other city has at least fifty interwikis. Bluevestman (talk) 23:30, 17 May 2025 (UTC)

:::Most do, but no, not all other VA5 cities have 50 interwikis. Still, I don't think that's a good reason to remove a city. EchoVanguardZ (talk) 00:44, 18 May 2025 (UTC)

::::Considering how important they are, I think cities should have a much higher amount of interwikis than usual. Bluevestman (talk) 18:18, 20 May 2025 (UTC)

We have the section for paleogeography under Earth sciences. We should fix this. I think it impacts a level 4 article or two, I'll boldly move those. We include the other "continents" in geography, I don't know why this would be different.

;Support

1. As nom. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 17:32, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Neutral

1. I've always seen the history of the Earth, including paleogeography, as a topic of Earth science. On the other hand I don't have a clear understanding of how physical geography differs from earth science. Lophotrochozoa (talk) 15:31, 13 May 2025 (UTC)

:@Lophotrochozoa I can answer this question but it would likely take a fairly large explanation. In short, Geography is a discipline that is at least two thousand years old, involves spatial information, and does not necessitate the scientific method (in fact, formal scientific geography is only a few hundred years old). Earth science as a term is more recent, but includes ancient disciplines like geology and meteorology under its umbrella. Earth science necessitates the use of the scientific method, and can include non-spatial data (like a geologist looking at a zircon crystal through a microscope). GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 17:30, 15 June 2025 (UTC)

;Discuss

GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 17:32, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

Given above comments that Countries/Regions and country subdivisions is under quota, I thought I'd raise an obvious current omission: Oecusse. This is a geographically distinct and politically autonomous municipality of {{VA link|Timor-Leste}}. Looking over the current list it appears that autonomous areas seem to make the list, even for countries where not all first-level divisions are listed, so Oecusse fits that criteria.

;Support

1. as nom. CMD (talk) 12:22, 7 May 2025 (UTC)
2. Seems important enough. QuicoleJR (talk) 10:34, 17 May 2025 (UTC)
3. Idiosincrático (talk) 07:52, 2 June 2025 (UTC)
4. Weak support; it is rather small. J947 ‡ ^edits 23:45, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Discuss]

Article has 20+ interwikis. Very large scale federal operation linked to the downfall of several progressive and left-wing groups. Although the program was officially terminated in the 1970s, similar mass surveillance tactics have since been used by the FBI. I believe this article is vital enough for that reason.

;Support

1. As nom. 🌙Eclipse (she/they/all neos • talk • edits) 16:29, 7 May 2025 (UTC)
2. Lophotrochozoa (talk) 14:14, 13 May 2025 (UTC)
3. Per nom. J947 ‡ ^edits 23:46, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Discuss

{{atopg|status=passed|result=Added 4-0 Lophotrochozoa (talk) 20:48, 15 June 2025 (UTC)}}

Huế was moved to Huế (provincial city) and Thừa Thiên Huế province was moved to Huế at the start of the year because the Thừa Thiên Huế province became Vietnam's newest municipality, named Huế in January 2025. The former provincial city was dissolved according to the article.

;Support

1. As nom. Sahaib (talk) 08:33, 8 May 2025 (UTC)
2. Idiosincrático (talk) 07:52, 2 June 2025 (UTC)
3. Lophotrochozoa (talk) 22:50, 7 June 2025 (UTC)`
4. J947 ‡ ^edits 23:28, 7 June 2025 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Discuss

{{abot}}

{{atopr|status=failed|result=Not added 1-4 Lophotrochozoa (talk) 15:49, 8 June 2025 (UTC)}}

Two deadly school shootings that impacted debates on gun safety.

;Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 01:17, 9 May 2025 (UTC)

;Oppose

1. I'm sorry if I sound insensitive here but gun debates in the United States have always been perennial since Columbine if not prior. Neither of these two significantly caused them any more debates than many other shootings and I doubt their long term impacts. They are tragic losses of life but they did not impact anything long term on a global scale unlike Columbine or Sandy Hook which are the two prime examples of mass shootings in the United States. After the first few months of the initial shock, there's nothing that separates these from countless other shootings in the United States. I honestly even doubt the vitality of the 2017 Las Vegas shooting or the Orlando nightclub shooting because, while they were very deadly attacks, neither are remembered very well and did not echo through the entire country like Columbine or Sandy Hook did. Even though one of them was the deadliest in the country's history. λ NegativeMP1 01:36, 9 May 2025 (UTC)
2. Sadly agree with NegativeMP1 _pbp 13:25, 9 May 2025 (UTC)
3. Unfortunately, the two opposes above are right. These two shootings aren't as famous as Pulse, which is itself up for removal right now. QuicoleJR (talk) 02:35, 16 May 2025 (UTC)
4. :I thought Parkland was more famous than Pulse. It seemed to me that the Parkland shooting inspired more of a movement for gun control, and then there were political celebrities spreading conspiracy theories about it. It also has higher pageviews. EchoVanguardZ (talk) 18:54, 16 May 2025 (UTC)
5. Unfortunately opposing both. I feel like these shootings didn't radicalize the gun control scene compared to Columbine or Sandy Hook (although I can see the case being made for Parkland, which I also believe is now arguably more famous than Pulse). JpTheNotSoSuperior (talk) 22:07, 20 May 2025 (UTC)

;Neutral

;Discuss

{{abot}}

These shootings are not very vital compared to other shootings like Columbine or Sandy Hook.

;Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 11:55, 9 May 2025 (UTC)
2. _pbp 13:24, 9 May 2025 (UTC)
3. Per nom. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 03:50, 10 May 2025 (UTC)
4. I was in Mixed before, supporting Pulse but opposing Las Vegas, but I decided to move to full support. I think an event should have some long-lasting impact other than a death count or have a lot of lasting cultural significance, like the {{VA link|Boston Marathon bombing}} (which we should list) or the {{VA link|Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting}}, to be listed. QuicoleJR (talk) 18:35, 16 May 2025 (UTC)
5. J947 ‡ ^edits 23:48, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Mixed

1. Opposing Vegas, unfortunately supporting Pulse. Vegas may not have had the cultural impact as a shooting like Columbine or Sandy Hook or even Virginia Tech (and it arguably was forgotten), but it was the deadliest shooting in U.S. history. Pulse on the other hand was arguably only notable for the single(!) year it had the highest death count (or maybe also that it was an attack on a gay nightclub). JpTheNotSoSuperior (talk) 22:10, 20 May 2025 (UTC)
2. Oppose Pulse, neutral on Vegas (possibly swap for Mass shootings in the United States?) as it is culturally relevant as one of the greatest singular anti-LGBT attacks, and I am puzzled by the claims here that it lacks that significance (especially compared to the Boston bombing?) Iostn (talk) 22:15, 18 June 2025 (UTC)
3. Oppose both per JpTheNotSoSuperior and Iostn. Lophotrochozoa (talk) 11:22, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

;Neutral

;Discuss

A cinder cone volcano that is home to a fairly substantial land art project. It is essentially an art installation at this point.

;Support

1. As nom. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 03:49, 10 May 2025 (UTC)

;Oppose

1. I'd rather have James Turrell be listed instead of just one 'work' of his, he only began this project in 2019. SameOldSameOldSameOld (talk) SameOldSameOldSameOld (talk) 17:41, 10 May 2025 (UTC)
2. :{{Comment}} I nominated him on people yesterday at the same time that I nominated this work. I tend to favor works over people though, and this is a substantial piece in terms of size, notability, and expense. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 17:46, 10 May 2025 (UTC)
3. Pageviews, interwikis, and article size demonstrate that this is insufficiently well-known. Maybe when it's opened it will become vital. {{VA link|Spiral Jetty}} is not listed but is a better option IMO. J947 ‡ ^edits 23:52, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

;Neutral

;Discuss

GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 03:49, 10 May 2025 (UTC)

A terrorist attack led by {{VA link|Shoko Asahara}}. The lead states that "The attack remains the deadliest terrorist incident in Japan as defined by modern standards", and the article for the Heisei era lists it as one of the "key events". The incident also led to many law changes in Japan, including the removal of trash cans from most major train stations.

;Support

1. As nom. SameOldSameOldSameOld (talk) SameOldSameOldSameOld (talk) 13:07, 10 May 2025 (UTC)
2. Rated Top-Importance by WikiProject Japan. Seems vital enough to include. QuicoleJR (talk) 21:04, 10 May 2025 (UTC)
3. Lophotrochozoa (talk) 14:29, 19 May 2025 (UTC)
4. Idiosincrático (talk) 07:53, 2 June 2025 (UTC)
5. Famous and reasonably unique for that part of the world. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:04, 14 June 2025 (UTC)

;Oppose

1. It's one attack. {{VA link|Aum Shinrikyo}} should be listed and this not. J947 ‡ ^edits 23:56, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

;Neutral

;Discuss

{{atopr|status=failed|result=Not added 3-2 Lophotrochozoa (talk) 11:46, 21 June 2025 (UTC)}}

A previous thread couldn't get enough votes either for or against adding {{VA link|Star (heraldry)}}, but I closed it because two other articles did get enough votes. Lophotrochozoa (talk) 21:57, 13 May 2025 (UTC)

;Support

1. TonyTheTiger was the original nominator.
2. Zar2gar1 voted support in the original thread.
3. Lophotrochozoa voted support in the original thread.

;Oppose

1. J947 voted oppose in the original thread.
2. Just 7 interwikis, niche concept. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:05, 14 June 2025 (UTC)

;Neutral

;Discussion

Lophotrochozoa (talk) 21:57, 13 May 2025 (UTC)

:{{ping|Lophotrochozoa}} If you are going to make these split sections, can you please include the nominator's rationale and the rationales next to each vote? Listing the article without any context makes it difficult to come to a decision. QuicoleJR (talk) 02:37, 16 May 2025 (UTC)

::User:QuicoleJR, he started this with a link to the prior discussion.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 16:44, 17 June 2025 (UTC)

{{abot}}

Keep in mind that England's VA5 subdivisions average 1 million population, Belgium - 1 million, Greece - 1.3 million, the Netherlands - 1.4 million, Poland - 2.4 million, etc. I wanted to increase representation of Africa. Some countries will have more representation than others merely because their administrative divisions are smaller. I can't think of any way to resolve that bias. A number of these, therefore, may be unlikely to pass.

There are 26 provinces, although {{VA link|Kinshasa}} is already listed as a city. This leaves an average of 4.2 million per province.

;Support

1. As nominator. EchoVanguardZ (talk) 02:41, 14 May 2025 (UTC)
2. Makes sense to me. QuicoleJR (talk) 02:40, 16 May 2025 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Discussion

Most of these subdivisions were only created in 2015 – so what can we write about them? I'm not opposed to the additions, but I think a case-by-case analysis would be better. J947 ‡ ^edits 22:05, 18 May 2025 (UTC)

I'm proposing all regions except Dar es Salaam Region (covered by {{VA link|Dar es Salaam}}, and the four that make up {{VA link|Zanzibar}} (which are also the 4 least populous). Average population for these would be about 2.3 million. If you oppose this, then do you have an idea of how to include Tanzania in this section? Including some of the regions?

;Support

1. As nominator. EchoVanguardZ (talk) 02:41, 14 May 2025 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Discussion

These are by-and-large healthy articles, which are nice, but I simply don't think there's space for all 26. Consider proposing the best 12–15. We only list 17 German and 16 Spanish regions, and it looks like they might be shrunk further as we look to fill other areas of the world. J947 ‡ ^edits 22:10, 18 May 2025 (UTC)

:Well, we list all the states of Germany and all the autonomous communities of Spain, so that covers everything for those countries. But I'll consider nominating a smaller number instead. EchoVanguardZ (talk) 21:55, 23 May 2025 (UTC)

{{atopg|status=passed|result=Added 4-0 Lophotrochozoa (talk) 16:57, 29 May 2025 (UTC)}}

This would mean adding {{VA link|Central Region, Uganda}}, {{VA link|Western Region, Uganda}}, {{VA link|Eastern Region, Uganda}}, and {{VA link|Northern Region, Uganda}}. Their average population is 12 million.

;Support

1. As nominator. EchoVanguardZ (talk) 02:41, 14 May 2025 (UTC)
2. Makes sense to me. QuicoleJR (talk) 02:38, 16 May 2025 (UTC)
3. Lophotrochozoa (talk) 21:33, 18 May 2025 (UTC)
4. Weak support. I'm realising that it probably makes more sense to cover African ethnic groups / kingdoms rather than regions. For Uganda that involves listing the likes of Lugbara people, Acholi people, Ankole, Busoga, Teso people, and Buganda. Judging by the respective size of their articles, ethnic groups are the important subdivision of Uganda – not geographical categorisations that are ultimately based off ethnic groups. But it's only four articles for a country of 50 million, so why not. J947 ‡ ^edits 22:18, 18 May 2025 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Discussion

{{abot}}

Average population is about 2.8 million. If you oppose this, should we list former provinces? For a country of 45 million people, we list only {{VA link|Darfur}}.

;Support

1. As nominator. EchoVanguardZ (talk) 02:41, 14 May 2025 (UTC)
2. Makes sense to me. QuicoleJR (talk) 02:43, 16 May 2025 (UTC)
3. Partial: support add for Kordofan (as opposed to any specific Kordofan state, the article describes Kordofan as being a historically defined region), Khartoum State, Gezira State, Kassala State, White Nile State, al Qadarif, and Northern State (Sudan). (all states with a population above 2 million, or a wide area) ALittleClass (talk) 18:39, 27 May 2025 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Discussion

This is all regions of Morocco except the two southernmost that are part of {{VA link|Western Sahara}}. Their average population is 3.6 million.

;Support

1. As nominator. EchoVanguardZ (talk) 02:41, 14 May 2025 (UTC)
2. Makes sense to me. QuicoleJR (talk) 02:43, 16 May 2025 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Discussion

Average population: 3 million.

;Support

1. As nominator. EchoVanguardZ (talk) 02:41, 14 May 2025 (UTC)
2. Makes sense to me. QuicoleJR (talk) 02:44, 16 May 2025 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Discussion

Average population: 3 million.

;Support

1. As nominator. EchoVanguardZ (talk) 02:41, 14 May 2025 (UTC)
2. Makes sense to me. QuicoleJR (talk) 02:44, 16 May 2025 (UTC)
3. ALittleClass (talk) 04:30, 21 May 2025 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Discussion

That is {{VA link|Bahr el Ghazal (region of South Sudan)}}, {{VA link|Equatoria}}, and {{VA link|Greater Upper Nile}}. Average population: 4 million.

;Support

1. As nominator. EchoVanguardZ (talk) 02:41, 14 May 2025 (UTC)
2. Makes sense to me. QuicoleJR (talk) 02:45, 16 May 2025 (UTC)
3. ALittleClass (talk) 18:40, 27 May 2025 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Discussion

I couldn't find any reasonable way to balance Algeria, Angola, or any smaller countries. EchoVanguardZ (talk) 02:41, 14 May 2025 (UTC)

• {{VA link|Northern Thailand}}
• {{VA link|Isan}}
• {{VA link|Western Thailand}}
• {{VA link|Central Thailand}}
• {{VA link|Eastern Thailand}}
• {{VA link|Southern Thailand}}

;Support

1. As nominator. EchoVanguardZ (talk) 02:49, 14 May 2025 (UTC)
2. Lophotrochozoa (talk) 01:10, 15 May 2025 (UTC)
3. {{VA link|Thailand}} is underrepresented at VA5. QuicoleJR (talk) 02:38, 16 May 2025 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Discussion

• {{VA link|Northwest (Vietnam)}}
• {{VA link|Northeast (Vietnam)}}
• {{VA link|Red River Delta}}
• {{VA link|North Central Coast}}
• {{VA link|Central Highlands (Vietnam)}}
• {{VA link|South Central Coast}}
• {{VA link|Southeast (Vietnam)}}
• {{VA link|Mekong Delta}}

;Support

1. As nominator. EchoVanguardZ (talk) 02:49, 14 May 2025 (UTC)
2. Lophotrochozoa (talk) 01:10, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Discussion

The drainage basin of the {{VA link|Amazon River}} includes several great rivers, but the only tributaries we list are {{VA link|Rio Negro (Amazon)}}, {{VA link|Madeira River}}, {{VA link|Apurímac River}}, {{VA link|Casiquiare canal}} and (counting generously) {{VA link|Tocantins River}}.

The {{VA link|Marañón River}} has an average discharge of over 16 000 m³/s, it is over 1 700 kilometers long (I don't know if this counts from the source of the Nupe River of from the confluence of the Nupe and Lauricocha rivers, but it doesn't make much difference), and its drainage basin is about 360 000 km²/s. Its confluence with the Ucayali River defines the beginning of the Amazon River.

;Support

1. As nominator. Lophotrochozoa (talk) 14:34, 15 May 2025 (UTC)
2. This river also apparently has legal importance, according to the article. QuicoleJR (talk) 02:46, 16 May 2025 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Neutral

The {{VA link|Ucayali River}} has an average discharge of over 13 000 m³/s, it is over 1 400 kilometers long (counting from the confluence of the Tambo and Urubamba rivers), and its drainage basin is about 350 000 km²/s. Its confluence with the Marañón River defines the beginning of the Amazon River. We already list its headwater {{VA link|Apurímac River}}.

;Support

1. As nominator. Lophotrochozoa (talk) 14:34, 15 May 2025 (UTC)
2. Seems pretty important. QuicoleJR (talk) 02:47, 16 May 2025 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Neutral

The {{VA link|Japurá River}} has an average discharge of over 18 000 m³/s, it is over 2 000 kilometers long, and its drainage basin is over 270 000 km²/s.

;Support

1. As nominator. Lophotrochozoa (talk) 14:34, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Neutral

The {{VA link|Tapajós}} River has an average discharge of about 13 000 m³/s, it is over 800 kilometers long (counting from the confluence of the Juruena and Teles Pires rivers), and its drainage basin is nearly 500 000 km²/s.

;Support

1. As nominator. Lophotrochozoa (talk) 14:34, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Neutral

The {{VA link|Purus River}} has an average discharge of about 11 000 m³/s, it is over 3 300 kilometers long, and its drainage basin is nearly 370 000 km²/s.

;Support

1. As nominator. Lophotrochozoa (talk) 14:34, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Neutral

The {{VA link|Xingu River}} has an average discharge of about 10 000 m³/s, it is over 1 600 kilometers long, and its drainage basin is over 500 000 km²/s.

;Support

1. As nominator. Lophotrochozoa (talk) 14:34, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Neutral

A major incident in the histories of both India and Sweden, which caused a regime change in India and is still remembered today. Rated High-Importance by the WikiProjects for India, Sweden, Crime, and Politics.

;Support

1. As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 02:33, 16 May 2025 (UTC)
2. Lophotrochozoa (talk) 15:44, 19 May 2025 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Neutral

;Discuss

The upcoming removal of the Pulse nightclub shooting should make room to add this. One of the most famous terrorist attacks of the 2010s, the bombing injured over 200 people. There were widespread reactions internationally and the incident caused a global improvement of security at sporting events. It is also still widely remembered and discussed by Americans today, it still gets massive amounts of pageviews 12 years later, and it has an impressive 56 interwikis. The massive and enduring impact of this tragic event makes it warrant a slot at VA5.

;Support

1. As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 18:24, 16 May 2025 (UTC)
2. : Quite famous. EchoVanguardZ (talk) 18:55, 16 May 2025 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE. J947 ‡ ^edits 00:04, 19 June 2025 (UTC)
3. Should be added, the {{VA link|Boston Marathon}} itself could probably be added too. JpTheNotSoSuperior (talk) 22:11, 20 May 2025 (UTC)

;Oppose

1. Come 100 years this will be a footnote. Specific terrorist attacks don't lend themselves well to big-picture encyclopaedic articles. J947 ‡ ^edits 00:04, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

;Neutral

;Discuss

Should be on the same level as History of the Americas.

;Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 19:33, 17 May 2025 (UTC)
2. Sure, but like with {{VA link|History of the Americas}}, I'd prefer to keep it at VA5. QuicoleJR (talk) 16:09, 19 May 2025 (UTC)
3. Support. Eurasia is a less... European Supremicist term then Europe. I think it is higher priority then Europe overall. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 18:44, 19 May 2025 (UTC)

I was surprised to see no Chinese parks listed at Level 4, so I looked up the most important park from China that I could find, Jiuzhaigou, and was going to make a nomination to promote it until I found it wasn't even Level 5. In fact, there's only 1 listed for China in Level 5: Huanglong Scenic and Historic Interest Area. Considering the US can have 34 parks (more than the entirety of Asia, currently), I think there can be a few more in the area.

A UNESCO World Heritage Site, said to have 4 million attendants in 2019. [https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0169204623001111 (source)] 48 interwikis.

;Support

1. As nom. 04:38, 21 May 2025 (UTC)
2. Lophotrochozoa (talk) 12:54, 31 May 2025 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Neutral

50 interwikis and another UNESCO World Heritage Site, got over a million tourists in a year just in 2002, probably higher today.

;Support

1. As nom. ALittleClass (talk) 04:38, 21 May 2025 (UTC)
2. Lophotrochozoa (talk) 18:48, 8 June 2025 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Neutral

In case I didn't mention, India is also pretty underrepresented with just 2 parks currently. This was the first ever national park of India, 32 interwikis.

;Support

1. As nom. ALittleClass (talk) 04:38, 21 May 2025 (UTC)
2. Lophotrochozoa (talk) 14:32, 9 June 2025 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Neutral

Parks, preserves, and World Heritage Sites currently has 118 articles. Of those, over a third (43) are North American, so that is probably an overrepresentation. I am not sure how representation is being calculated for the above proposals, but to get some idea, there are [https://whc.unesco.org/en/list 231 natural UNESCO World Heritage sites] (plus 40 mixed, so perhaps 271). Of those, the United States has 12(+1), Canada has 11(+1), Mexico has 6(+2), Costa Rica has 3, Panama has 3, Cuba has 2, Belize has 1, Dominica has 1, Honduras has 1, Saint Lucia has 1, Guatemala has 0(+1), and Jamaica has 0(+1). This is 41(+6), or just under 18%. While we wouldn't expect to show exactly the same ratio, that's a pretty significant discrepancy. CMD (talk) 07:15, 21 May 2025 (UTC)

I just removed {{VA link|Sanmenxia}} from the physical geography subpage because it is an administrative subdivision, not a feature of physical geography. In the previous discussion Purplebackpack89 wanted to keep it because Sanmenxia contains an urban area. Thus we should have a separate discussion about listing it on cities. Lophotrochozoa (talk) 15:28, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

;Support

1. Purplebackpack89's support assumed.
2. Idiosincrático (talk) 07:55, 2 June 2025 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Neutral

1. The urban area in question constitutes less than half of Sanmenxia's population and it is not entirely in Sanmenxia. Lophotrochozoa (talk) 15:28, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

;Discussion

{{atop

| status = PASSED

| result = Added 4-0 🌙Eclipse (she/they/all neos • talk • edits) 14:25, 11 June 2025 (UTC)

}}

Article has 40+ interwikis. I was surprised that this wasn't a vital article, as it was one of the most viewed charity events in history (and arguably among the most controversial). Although it raised awareness of the famine happening at the time ({{VA link|1983–1985 famine in Ethiopia}}), many concerns of where the money was actually going to have begun to arise since its TV airing in 1985. I believe this article is vital enough for that reason.

;Support

1. As nom. 🌙Eclipse (she/they/all neos • talk • edits) 13:03, 28 May 2025 (UTC)
2. Seems like it has had enough of a lasting impact to list. QuicoleJR (talk) 23:23, 28 May 2025 (UTC)
3. "40% of the world population" tuned in. Interdisciplinary importance as well. ALittleClass (talk) 02:35, 2 June 2025 (UTC)
4. Idiosincrático (talk) 07:54, 2 June 2025 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Discuss

If this is notable, individual Olympic Games are too. They typically have about 30 more interwikis than Live Aid does, and last a lot longer than the length of a concert. _pbp 14:18, 28 May 2025 (UTC)

:I don't think we need every Olympics. Individual ones I could see being vital, but listing all of them is unsustainable. And before you bring up politicians, there is a reason we don't list every U.S. President. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:59, 28 May 2025 (UTC)

::@QuicoleJR There's only 50,000 slots so it IS fair to compare vitality of disparate topics _pbp 21:39, 28 May 2025 (UTC)

:::{{ping|Purplebackpack89}} I didn't say that you couldn't. I was saying that I don't think we should list every Olympic Games, and remembering your previous argument about G7 leaders, I specified that I don't think we need to list every single one of them either (and we already don't list Truss or Garfield). QuicoleJR (talk) 22:02, 28 May 2025 (UTC)

::::@QuicoleJR Let's circle back....Do you believe Live Aid to be more notable than, say, the 1984 Olympics, and, if so, why? _pbp 22:54, 28 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::Again, I don't believe that every Olympic Games should be listed just because it happened and the Olympics are important. Only Olympics with special important that makes them vital even among Olympic Games should be listed, the rest can be covered by the Olympics themselves because being the Olympics makes up the entirety of their claim to importance. QuicoleJR (talk) 23:31, 28 May 2025 (UTC)

:There have been 54 Olympic games, while there have only been 2 live-aid style concerts. I believe the specific Olympics events are examples of events that are very important while they are happen, but their fame and recognition fade quite quickly, simply because of how many there are. As an example, Freddie Mercury's performance at Live Aid has had more cultural staying power than almost all specific Olympic performances. (I do believe it's fine to list some of the specific Olympic events, and we currently have a proposal to add one that's tracking to pass) ALittleClass (talk) 02:33, 2 June 2025 (UTC)

{{abot}}

We include {{VA link|County}}, {{VA link|District}}, {{VA link|Municipality}}, {{VA link|Province}}, I think we can expand this a bit more. These would be inclusions under "Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/Geography/Countries" in "Countries: General" and "Administrative division."

A concept where the {{VA link|Modifiable areal unit problem}} is exploited to impact the results of an election. Boundaries are drawn in such a way that the outcome is impacted.

;Support

1. As nom. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 19:35, 28 May 2025 (UTC)
2. Support add in "Politics and economics" section. ALittleClass (talk) 09:35, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
3. Bluevestman (talk) 22:47, 6 June 2025 (UTC)
4. Place on politics if we increase the quota. Lophotrochozoa (talk) 20:03, 8 June 2025 (UTC)

;Oppose

1. This is not geography. While obviously lines in the ground are drawn, gerrymandering is about demography. It is about manipulating people, not land. CMD (talk) 05:02, 30 May 2025 (UTC)
2. :I'm a geographer. Most of what we include isn't geography, it's {{VA link|Toponymy}}. Gerrymandering is taught about in geography classes, we don't generally have students memorize place names. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 22:55, 6 June 2025 (UTC)
3. ::I don't follow, what do place names have to do with Gerrymandering? Modern US districts don't even get names. CMD (talk) 01:49, 8 June 2025 (UTC)
4. :::My point is that we teach Gerrymandering in geography classes, we don't spend much time on names of cities and such. The vital articles emphasizes names of cities and places over higher order concepts that underly these. Gerrymandering is definitely a topic brought up when discussing American geography. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 06:08, 14 June 2025 (UTC)
5. ::::The vital articles emphasize the actual cities and places, not their naming. A focus on the names would be articles such as Etymology of London and Names for India. CMD (talk) 13:38, 15 June 2025 (UTC)
6. :::::The emphasis on creating a list of places is not generally what geography is about. Like my opinion that concepts are much more important then individual people, geographic concepts are much more important then individual places. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 17:35, 15 June 2025 (UTC)
7. ::::::In an academic geographic sense probably, but places have importance outside of academic fields. "Geography" as a concept has to awkwardly contain both senses. CMD (talk) 18:29, 15 June 2025 (UTC)
8. :::::::Geography as a concept contains multitudes, the issue is in how those multitudes are organized. Vital article criteria 1 is: "Coverage: Vital articles at higher levels tend to "cover" more topics and be broader in their scope. For example, Science 1 is a Vital-1 article, while Scientific method 3 is a lower level of vitality. Determining which articles are vital at lower levels often involves looking at the articles at higher levels. For example, since History 2 is of high vitality, World War II 3 is also a vital article, just at a lower level." Individual places have the lowest coverage, just like individual people will have the lowest coverage. For example, the concept of {{VA link|Border}} is level 4, but we have individual "countries" at level 3. The term {{VA link|Country}} (listed at level 2) itself is ambiguous to the point of meaninglessness, when what we list are {{VA link| Sovereign state}}, a term at level 4. We organize our regions by {{VA link|Continent}}, which is a term that has no real set definition in itself, and we use the Western version that emphasizes the importance of Europe. Despite this, {{VA link|Region}}, the more appropriate term that would be broader in scope then continent is level 5. In the vital articles, geography is organized in a way that reflects the failure of American public education system on geography. We use the colloquial terms despite them not being the best from an academic perspective, we ignore concepts in favor of places we think are important, and that reflects a heavy western bias. It is like a 3rd grader from 1920 Mississippi organized it. The project criteria are more or less completely ignored (people focusing on Language links over page views is another example), and the situation in geography is particularly bad. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 18:46, 15 June 2025 (UTC)

;Neutral

1. Swap with modifiable area unit problem _pbp 22:55, 28 May 2025 (UTC)

:MAUP is an important concept in spatial analysis and statistics. Gerrymandering is one instance where political people have used the MAUP to their advantage. Would prefer MAUP to Gerrymandering, by far. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 06:36, 29 May 2025 (UTC)

::Gerrymandering has existed since before the modifiable unit problem was defined... _pbp 21:31, 29 May 2025 (UTC)

:::...The MAUP has implications outside elections and human geography. It is a problem that comes up whenever you're sampling things, and it would still be an issue if we were drawing polygons on Mars to define the average temperature. Also, MAUP is in Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/Mathematics along with {{VA link|Ecological fallacy}}, this is History and Geography. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 03:42, 30 May 2025 (UTC)

;Discuss

From the lede: "An electoral (congressional, legislative, etc.) district, sometimes called a constituency, riding, or ward, is a geographical portion of a political unit, such as a country, state or province, city, or administrative region, created to provide the voters therein with representation in a legislature or other polity."

;Support

1. As nom. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 19:35, 28 May 2025 (UTC)
2. Sure _pbp 22:55, 28 May 2025 (UTC)
3. Important to both History and Geography. CMD (talk) 05:04, 30 May 2025 (UTC)
4. Bluevestman (talk) 22:47, 6 June 2025 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Neutral

;Discuss

From the lede: "Congressional districts, also known as electoral districts in other nations, are divisions of a larger administrative region that represent the population of a region in the larger congressional body. Countries with congressional districts include the United States, the Philippines, and Japan."

;Support

1. As nom. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 19:35, 28 May 2025 (UTC)

;Oppose

1. Entirely redundant concept to electoral district. CMD (talk) 05:04, 30 May 2025 (UTC)
2. Per CMD. Lophotrochozoa (talk) 19:36, 31 May 2025 (UTC)
3. This. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:06, 14 June 2025 (UTC)

;Neutral

;Discuss

From the lede: "A canton is a type of administrative division of a country."

;Support

1. As nom. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 19:35, 28 May 2025 (UTC)
2. V5 term. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:18, 14 June 2025 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Neutral

1. Not a fan of adding what for now is simply a de facto disambiguation page. Bluevestman (talk) 05:01, 14 June 2025 (UTC)
2. Per Bluevestman. Lophotrochozoa (talk) 14:52, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

;Discuss

• What would be the eventual end goal here, listing every administrative division that happens to have gotten a different English name separately? CMD (talk) 05:05, 30 May 2025 (UTC)

:From a data perspective, these are pretty important topics, just on the back end. We have a section titled "Urban studies and planning" that is a bit thin at 55 articles. We list thousands of place names (1984 cities alone), a type of administrative division used in several countries is at least as important as the 145 cities we include for the United States alone. Administrative divisions have different characteristics, they aren't all 1 to 1 relationships with their English equivalent. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 22:53, 6 June 2025 (UTC)

::But they aren't 1:1 with administrative divisions in other countries with the same names either. CMD (talk) 01:50, 8 June 2025 (UTC)

:::You're right, same can be said for {{VA link|County}}, {{VA link|State (polity)}}, and {{VA link|Province}}, though. We have articles like {{VA link|Cantons of Ecuador}}. {{VA link|Cantons of Switzerland}}, and {{VA link|Cantons of Togo}} that could be added. We include {{VA link|U.S. state}} and {{VA link|County (United States)}}, and I don't think this is likely to be challenged, which is likely western bias. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 01:58, 8 June 2025 (UTC)

::::State (polity) is about the broad political concept, not about a specific level of administrative division. I am not sold on the inclusion of County or Province either, hence my question about what the eventual end goal is. {{VA link|Administrative division}} is the likely vital article for this particular niche, the others seem variations on it that are little more than dictionary definitions and example lists. Various country-specific articles are a separate if related topic. CMD (talk) 02:49, 8 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::Our entire list is generally upside down when it comes to geography. Administrative division being at level 5 when there are specific U.S. states at level 4 is a tragedy. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 03:00, 8 June 2025 (UTC)

::::::Less of a tragedy than the state of the Administrative division article mind. CMD (talk) 03:23, 8 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::::Geography articles in general are a tragedy, I won't argue with that. I started editing Wikipedia to try and help with that, and the state of an article is not consequential to how vital a concept it is, if a vital article is low quality that is a reason to bring attention to fixing it. That said, from a professional standpoint, from the top down the organization is pretty ignorant of what geography is, and has a western bias baked in. The use of {{VA link|Continent}} to organize the regions is like using race to organize people, a made up concept that no one agrees on. The idea that Europe is a continent (in the system we are using) but India isn't is evidence of how terrible a concept the continents are. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 04:01, 8 June 2025 (UTC)

::::::::You don't have to tell me, I've been trying to find better ways to organise topics geographically for years (to mixed success). However, that is why it's important to think about the wider organisation here. We know we have State (polity)s, and we know they are divided up administratively in various ways. Regarding concepts, what is vital for understanding? I would suggest that picking particular English names does not help understanding. Articles that tackle function, such as Federated state (which includes polities named "province" "canton", etc.), would be better candidates. CMD (talk) 04:15, 8 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::I would argue that {{VA link|Federated state}} not being included at level 3 is a tragedy, but Canton should be at least at level 5. I've been trying to organize geography topics for a year now, but because I can't skip levels, any one particular move being blocked can make an entire reorganization impossible, leaving us with a highly entrenched ignorant and borderline western supremacist organization as the default. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 04:32, 8 June 2025 (UTC)

::You've got it backwards. All those cities we list are not place names, they are places. This proposal is for a place name. J947 ‡ ^edits 02:44, 8 June 2025 (UTC)

:::You're wrong. [https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/place-name Place name] on Websters dictionary is: the name of a geographic locality. Place name origins goes into a bit of detail on place names, but specifically is talking about the names of cities and geographic features. Toponymy is "the study of toponyms (proper names of places, also known as place names and geographic names), including their origins, meanings, usage, and types. Toponym is the general term for a proper name of any geographical feature, and full scope of the term also includes proper names of all cosmographical features." Geography isn't generally about lists of place names. Administrative divisions like canton are geographic concepts, specific place names, like the name of a city or sovereign state, are geographic trivia. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 03:00, 8 June 2025 (UTC)

::::I'm not meaning to challenge the scope of academic geography. Apart from a few areas which focus on academic geographic terminology, the Geography division of VA might better be named World: since place articles discuss the crossdisciplinary importance of the places, not toponymy. The articles Malawi and Rawalpindi are not focussed on those names; they are focussed on the historical, political, and cultural importance of the respective places. I resent you calling them "place names" since the articles quite clearly aren't about the names. On the other hand, Canton discusses the name of an administrative division in several countries. What I mean by calling it a "place name" is the likes of Una-Sana Canton and Moravia (canton). J947 ‡ ^edits 06:31, 8 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::Geography as a discipline is a sea saw tipped between Nomothetic and idiographic and , there are large movements in geography that advocate a focus on case studies to describe the uniqueness of specific places, and there are large movements to focus on generalized widely applicable theories. Unfortunately, the list here pushes hard towards the idiographic, and we are missing a lot of the high level generalized concepts that are within the nomothetic approaches. It's fair to state the articles are more then pure toponomy, but the list really seems like an effort to collect as many place names as possible. Place names, cities, towns, and countries are dust in the wind, concepts like city, town, and country are a bit more permanent. Concepts like Canton, {{VA link|Sovereign state}}, and other concepts should probably be higher then individual countries and cities. At the very least, they should be included. Furthermore, at the highest level we use really poor methods for our groupings, as stated above. Continents are the worst way to do regions in my opinion, and Europe is as much a "continent" (in the geologic sense) as Florida. If we want to get cultural, the only reason Europe is a continent and not India, the Middle East, and North/South/East/West/Central Africa is because Europeans have declared their culture to be so important that it warrants a "continent." Would much prefer we organize the higher levels around concepts, rather then some elementary school level attempt at drafting regions. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 08:09, 8 June 2025 (UTC)

::::::I agree with your observations about academic geography and I am well aware of its difficult place as (in many respects) both a science and a humanity. What I'm trying to express, albeit hamfistedly, is that academic geography is significantly different to the sum of encyclopaedic knowledge of the world. It is significantly easier to write neutral, tertiary information about the idiographic than the nomothetic, and readers generally some seeking the former. The VA history list focusses less on theories and concepts than it does events, because that reflects the nature of a broad database of knowledge. On the continent point, there is a significant English, Eurocentric bias to this list – and if we are to change that fact, there are much easier ways to do it than change the continent categorisation, since that's a feature of how the encyclopaedia divides up the world rather than how VA does it. One final observation: a canton is just another name for a subdivision that will sooner or later be lost to history. For that reason, I don't think it's a great choice for an encyclopaedia to prioritise. J947 ‡ ^edits 01:53, 9 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::::I had a high level proposal a bit ago that I'm reworking now. Part of it passed but didn't have room, and then got a rush of opposition before the removals passed, so I'm thinking about how to repackage. Essentially, geography at a high level is broken several different ways, including branches, traditions, themes, etc. I think that we could use human, physical, and technical geography at level 2 or 3, and then divide up human geography by region (not continent). That is how the geography page is organized, as well as categories and such. Physical geography isn't that much of an issue though. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 06:35, 9 June 2025 (UTC)

From the lede: "A census tract, census area, census district or meshblock is a geographic region defined for the purpose of taking a census." They are used in multiple countries.

;Support

1. As nom. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 19:35, 28 May 2025 (UTC)

;Oppose

1. Only two interwikis. Bluevestman (talk) 05:01, 14 June 2025 (UTC)

;Neutral

;Discuss

From the lede: "A census block is the smallest geographic unit used by the United States Census Bureau for tabulation of 100-percent data (data collected from all houses, rather than a sample of houses). The number of blocks in the United States, including Puerto Rico and other island areas, for the 2020 Census was 8,180,866."

;Support

1. As nom. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 19:35, 28 May 2025 (UTC)

;Oppose

1. Just one interwiki and unclear if anybody but the Census Bureau uses this term _pbp 21:40, 28 May 2025 (UTC)
2. Not sure what this adds to the concept of a census. CMD (talk) 05:07, 30 May 2025 (UTC)
3. Bluevestman (talk) 05:01, 14 June 2025 (UTC)

;Neutral

;Discuss

From the lede: "A Census Block Group is a geographical unit used by the United States Census Bureau which is between the Census Tract and the Census Block. It is the smallest geographical unit for which the bureau publishes sample data, i.e. data which is only collected from a fraction of all households. Typically, Block Groups have a population of 600 to 3,000 people."

;Support

1. As nom. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 19:35, 28 May 2025 (UTC)

;Oppose

1. Just one interwiki and unclear if anybody but the Census Bureau uses this term _pbp 21:40, 28 May 2025 (UTC)
2. Similar to above, the specific details of US census methodology are probably not vital. CMD (talk) 05:08, 30 May 2025 (UTC)
3. Bluevestman (talk) 05:01, 14 June 2025 (UTC)

;Neutral

;Discuss

GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 19:35, 28 May 2025 (UTC)

{{VA link|Najd}} is listed on level 4 but not on level 5. Lophotrochozoa (talk) 15:47, 29 May 2025 (UTC)

:Now I see that it is listed as physical geography on both levels 4 and 5, but I would like to list it as a region since I've more often seen it mentioned as a historical region than as a plateau and the article is more about the history, culture and demographics vthan about physical geography. Lophotrochozoa (talk) 14:25, 31 May 2025 (UTC)

A political movement that seeks to create a homeland for Sikhs. It's modern history dates back to at least the 1930s, and the movement has been among the main causes for killings, riots, bombings, and the assassination of {{VA link|Indira Gandhi}}. The movement continues to be a political issue in India, and many organizations have been formed over the years advocating for the formation of a Khalistan.

;Support

1. As nom. SameOldSameOldSameOld (talk) SameOldSameOldSameOld (talk) 18:39, 30 May 2025 (UTC)
2. ALittleClass (talk) 19:57, 3 June 2025 (UTC)
3. Bluevestman (talk) 22:47, 6 June 2025 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Neutral

;Discuss

Huge landmark of {{VA link|Rio de Janeiro}}. Has 55 interwikis, indicating it's a well-known worldwide.

;Support

1. Bluevestman (talk) 00:32, 7 June 2025 (UTC)
2. Lophotrochozoa (talk) 12:15, 10 June 2025 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Discuss

1ctinus very kindly provided a list of the articles with 0 interwikis. Here's everything that I believe falls into this category (this category has the least by far, for whatever reason)

{{VA link|Military aviation}} is only VA5, and it's the norm for the "history of" article to be a level lower than the subject itself, so this seems easy to cut. The article's in pretty bad shape as is.

;Support

1. As nom. ALittleClass (talk) 08:37, 7 June 2025 (UTC)
2. Lophotrochozoa (talk) 15:39, 10 June 2025 (UTC)
3. Bluevestman (talk) 06:53, 11 June 2025 (UTC)
4. I don't like listing timelines. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:29, 11 June 2025 (UTC)
5. Per nom. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 04:54, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Discuss

A surprising no-interwiki-wonder to me. I guess it's somewhat debatable whether a "history of" article for a subject should even exist separate from the article. Maybe there should be a bigger prune on these types of articles from the list.

;Support

1. As nom. ALittleClass (talk) 08:37, 7 June 2025 (UTC)
2. Bluevestman (talk) 20:26, 9 June 2025 (UTC)
3. A big town, but not one that is famous or important enough to merit its history at V5. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:15, 14 June 2025 (UTC)
4. Per nom. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 04:54, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Discuss

What it sounds like.

;Support

1. As nom. ALittleClass (talk) 08:37, 7 June 2025 (UTC)
2. Bluevestman (talk) 20:26, 9 June 2025 (UTC)
3. Lophotrochozoa (talk) 13:41, 11 June 2025 (UTC)
4. {{VA link|Rugby league}} is V4, but frankly, I think it should be demoted. {{VA link|Rugby football}} is also V4, and league is its child. History of it should be at V6. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:15, 14 June 2025 (UTC)
5. Per nom. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 04:54, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Discuss

"A subfield and methodological approach to geography focusing on nominal data, descriptive information, and the subjective and interpretive aspects of how humans experience and perceive the world." It seems decently broad. I guess {{VA link|Human geography}} covers some of the ground that this article does.

;Support

1. As nom. ALittleClass (talk) 08:37, 7 June 2025 (UTC)
2. Bluevestman (talk) 20:26, 9 June 2025 (UTC)

;Oppose

1. Oppose. I created this article, but I'm not a qualitative geographer. I will say that in the discipline of geography this is probably more important then the place names we list. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 01:30, 8 June 2025 (UTC)
2. :Oh, wow. You created this article. That's totally a good reason not to remove it. Bluevestman (talk) 20:26, 9 June 2025 (UTC)
3. ::I was disclosing that I created it before voting, not using it as part of an argument, no reason to get aggressive or be dismissive, I'm just making it clear that I have some "stake" in the article. To elaborate though, your reasoning about human geography is flawed as qualitative geographic methods are not limited to human geographic phenomena. It is a subset of {{VA link|Technical geography}} (An article I also originated) and has some applications in {{VA link|Physical geography}} (In fact the former president of the American Association of Geographers Rebecca Lave (An article I also originated) applies Critical geography to bridge the gap between physical and human geography, which would generally involve qualitative methods). We include {{VA link|Quantitative geography}} (an article I also originated) as well. Furthermore, this was added fairly recently, 4-0, on 16 January 2025. Not quite the 6 month months rule of thumb for "Wikipedia:Vital articles#Relitigation," although that is not a hard rule and I'm not the biggest fan of it anyway. Interwiki links is not a good metric alone for measuring an articles vitalness, as it will relate to how recent an article is, and is impacted by some people who actively try to translate articles into multiple languages. We need a composite statistic that is measured against outside sources and qualitative values of vitalness. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 20:11, 13 June 2025 (UTC)

;Discuss

Actually, I'm not convinced this should be removed. If the article existed in more languages, I would definitely defend this articles placement on the list.

;Support

1. Bluevestman (talk) 20:26, 9 June 2025 (UTC)

;Oppose

1. Your reasoning is entirely based on language links, I oppose the use of that single data point, especially as no one has gotten around to adding it to the vital article criteria..GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 20:26, 13 June 2025 (UTC)

;Discuss

ALittleClass (talk) 08:37, 7 June 2025 (UTC)

We have a bias towards large urban centers in the vital articles, despite these not being the norm for much of human history. Below are a few concepts and specific cultural examples of communities that I think should be included at least at level 5.

From the lede "An aul (/ˈɔːl/; lit. 'village') is a type of fortified village or town found throughout the Caucasus and Central Asia." Adding this can help a bit with our western bias.

;support

1. As nom. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 19:56, 13 June 2025 (UTC)

;oppose

;neutral

;discuss

From the lede "a linear settlement is a (normally small to medium-sized) settlement or group of buildings that is formed in a long line." This is a basic concept in studying human settlement patterns.

;support

1. As nom. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 19:56, 13 June 2025 (UTC)
2. Lophotrochozoa (talk) 11:19, 15 June 2025 (UTC)

;oppose

;neutral

;discuss

From the lede "A village green is a common open area within a village or other settlement. Historically, a village green was common grassland with a pond for watering cattle and other stock, often at the edge of a rural settlement, used for gathering cattle to bring them later on to a common land for grazing.[citation needed] Later, planned greens were built into the centres of villages."

;support

1. As nom. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 19:56, 13 June 2025 (UTC)
2. Lophotrochozoa (talk) 13:33, 15 June 2025 (UTC)

;oppose

;neutral

;discuss

From the lede "A pedestrian village is a compact, pedestrian-oriented neighborhood or town with a mixed-use village center." This is an important concept in modern city planning.

;support

1. As nom. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 19:56, 13 June 2025 (UTC)

;oppose

1. Too niche as of yet. J947 ‡ ^edits 00:15, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

;neutral

;discuss

From the lede "A fishing village is a village, usually located near a fishing ground, with an economy based on catching fish and harvesting seafood." This is a fairly basic concept as far as human civilizations go.

;support

1. As nom. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 19:56, 13 June 2025 (UTC)
2. Lophotrochozoa (talk) 11:35, 17 June 2025 (UTC)

;oppose

;neutral

;discuss

From the lede "The word pā (Māori pronunciation: [ˈpaː]; often spelled pa in English) can refer to any Māori village or defensive settlement, but often refers to hillforts – fortified settlements with palisades and defensive terraces – and also to fortified villages." Adding this can help a bit with our western bias.

;support

1. As nom. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 19:56, 13 June 2025 (UTC)

;oppose

1. {{VA link|Hillfort}} would be a strong proposal, but although important this is a big stretch. It's only due to Western bias that pā is being nominated rather than similar concepts in Africa and Asia. J947 ‡ ^edits 00:13, 19 June 2025 (UTC)
2. :Do you want to nominate {{VA link|Hillfort}}? I'd support that. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 00:32, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

;neutral

;discuss

GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 19:56, 13 June 2025 (UTC)

From the lede "Jebel Irhoud or Adrar n Ighoud, is an archaeological site located just north of the town of Tlet Ighoud in Youssoufia Province, approximately 50 km (30 mi) south-east of the city of Safi in Morocco. It is noted for the hominin fossils that have been found there since the discovery of the site in 1961. Originally thought to be Neanderthals, the specimens have since been assigned to Homo sapiens and, as reported in 2017, have been dated to roughly 300,000 years ago (286±32 ka for the Irhoud 3 mandible, 315±34 ka based on other fossils and the flint artefacts found nearby)."

;support

1. As nom. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 20:20, 13 June 2025 (UTC)
2. J947 ‡ ^edits 00:08, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

;oppose

;neutral

;discuss

From lede "Ohalo II is an archaeological site in the Northern District, Israel, near Kinneret, on the southwest shore of the Sea of Galilee. It is one of the best preserved hunter-gatherer archaeological sites of the Last Glacial Maximum, radiocarbon dated to around 23,000 BP (calibrated)."

;support

1. As nom. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 20:20, 13 June 2025 (UTC)

;oppose

1. We probably list too many historical cities as is, and this by all metrics this is simply way less vital than those which we do list. J947 ‡ ^edits 00:08, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

;neutral

;discuss

From lede "El Abra is the name given to an extensive archeological site, located in the valley of the same name. El Abra is situated in the east of the municipality Zipaquirá extending to the westernmost part of Tocancipá in the department of Cundinamarca, Colombia. The several hundred metres long series of rock shelters is in the north of the Bogotá savanna on the Altiplano Cundiboyacense, Eastern Ranges of the Colombian Andes at an altitude of 2,570 metres (8,430 ft). The rock shelter and cave system is one of the first evidences of human settlement in the Americas, dated at 12,400 ± 160 years BP."

;support

1. As nom. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 20:20, 13 June 2025 (UTC)

;oppose

1. We probably list too many historical cities as is, and this by all metrics this is simply way less vital than those which we do list. J947 ‡ ^edits 00:08, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

;neutral

;discuss

From lede "Aetokremnos is a rock shelter near Limassol on the southern coast of Cyprus. It is widely considered to host some of the oldest evidence of human habitation of Cyprus, dating to around 12,000 years ago."

;support

1. As nom. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 20:20, 13 June 2025 (UTC)

;oppose

1. We probably list too many historical cities as is, and this by all metrics this is simply way less vital than those which we do list. J947 ‡ ^edits 00:08, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

;neutral

;discuss

GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 20:20, 13 June 2025 (UTC)

Surprising this hasn't been added yet, the trigger for the {{VA link|Gaza war}}, sometimes compared to the {{VA link|September 11 attacks}} in terms of domestic impact

;Support

1. Nom Iostn (talk) 23:32, 18 June 2025 (UTC)
2. Lophotrochozoa (talk) 23:54, 18 June 2025 (UTC)
3. This event had led to Israel having a full-on war with Iran. I don't think we need to wait to see if we should include this. Bluevestman (talk) 20:34, 20 June 2025 (UTC)

;Oppose

1. Weak opposition, I'd like to wait and see how the next few years play out. It could be a {{VA link|Assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand}}, or a {{VA link|1993 World Trade Center bombing}}. I'm not sure yet, history is being made. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 00:36, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

;Discuss

1. It's covered within the Gaza War, compared to September 11th. I'm not opposed to adding it but I do think it's early. ALittleClass (talk) 05:04, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

Per above discussion with @J947, I think this form of settlment is worth including.

;Support

1. As nom. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 00:48, 19 June 2025 (UTC)
2. Thanks. Appears to appear all over the world. J947 ‡ ^edits 00:55, 19 June 2025 (UTC)
3. Put your fort on a hill. Just makes sense. CMD (talk) 02:14, 19 June 2025 (UTC)
4. Bluevestman (talk) 20:37, 20 June 2025 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Neutral

;Discuss

A federated state is a type of state that forms a {{VA link|Federation}}. An example would be the States in the United States of America. This was mentioned above by @User:Chipmunkdavis.

;Support

1. As nom. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 00:48, 19 June 2025 (UTC)
2. Sovereignty sharing in the post-Westphalia world. CMD (talk) 02:15, 19 June 2025 (UTC)
3. Bluevestman (talk) 20:47, 20 June 2025 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Neutral

;Discuss

Per the lede, "any state that has a mutual obligation to a superior state or empire, in a status similar to that of a vassal in the feudal system in medieval Europe."

;Support

1. As nom. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 00:48, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Neutral

;Discuss

• Wondering if making {{VA link|Vassal}} a VA might be a better path. CMD (talk) 02:16, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

:I think that would fall into a different category, however Vassal state is still used today in multiple contexts, often as a psudo-slur for countries involved in an alliance with one of the Superpowers. A vassal might be one person, however it is possible for Democracies to be Vassal states, if only in theory. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 21:45, 20 June 2025 (UTC)

Per the lede, "A puppet state, puppet régime, puppet government or dummy government is a state that is de jure independent but de facto completely dependent upon an outside power and subject to its orders."

;Support

1. As nom. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 00:48, 19 June 2025 (UTC)
2. Important concept, especially historically. CMD (talk) 02:17, 19 June 2025 (UTC)
3. Bluevestman (talk) 20:34, 20 June 2025 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Neutral

;Discuss

Per the lede, "in the context of international relations, is a state that is under protection by another state for defence against aggression and other violations of law."

;Support

1. As nom. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 00:48, 19 June 2025 (UTC)
2. Support, absent some wider structure for handling state relations. CMD (talk) 02:17, 19 June 2025 (UTC)
3. Bluevestman (talk) 20:47, 20 June 2025 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Neutral

;Discuss

Not a {{VA link|Great power}} or {{VA link|Superpower}}, but part of the same conceptual framework of international power dynamics.

;Support

1. As nom. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 00:48, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Neutral

;Discuss

Per the lede "In international relations, regional power, since the late 20th century, has been used for a sovereign state that exercises significant power within its geographical region"

;Support

1. As nom. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 00:48, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Neutral

;Discuss

Per the lede, "A suzerain (/ˈsuːzərən, -reɪn/, from Old French sus "above" + soverain "supreme, chief") is a person, state or polity who has supremacy and dominant influence over the foreign policy and economic relations of another subordinate party or polity, but allows internal autonomy to that subordinate."

;Support

1. As nom. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 00:48, 19 June 2025 (UTC)
2. Important historical concept. CMD (talk) 02:18, 19 June 2025 (UTC)
3. Bluevestman (talk) 20:47, 20 June 2025 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Neutral

;Discuss

GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 00:48, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

One of the largest lakes in Western Europe. Kind of shocked it's not on here.

;Support

1. Bluevestman (talk) 21:28, 20 June 2025 (UTC)
2. ALittleClass (talk) 19:29, 22 June 2025 (UTC)
3. Lophotrochozoa (talk) 23:02, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Discuss