Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive953

{{atop|(non-admin closure) ANI is a last resort, not the beginning. Please use the article or the editor's talk page to discuss. and made use of his experience and know-how of policies to subvert the fact and bully the newbies I saw no legalese or run-around being given. d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 16:05, 4 May 2017 (UTC)}}

{{userlinks|Adamstraw99}}

Astra (weapon)

The segment of Sudarshana Chakra in the article 'astra' has a description that it can be stopped by Lord Shiva. This seems to be inaccurate and unsourced. Sources supporting the opposite view that Lord Shiva cannot stop Sudarshana chakra has been added as reference. But {{User|Adamstraw99}} has constantly reverted the correction and made use of his experience and know-how of policies to subvert the fact and bully the newbies.Numerous users have tried to correct this in the past, but Adamstraw99 keeps reverting it without bothering to provide any sources.Please enforce WP:PROVEIT and resolve the dispute. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.201.99.229 (talk • contribs)

:I've notified the editor of the ANI discussion, which you are required to do. RickinBaltimore (talk) 20:49, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

• I don't see any recent attempt at discussion of this on the article's talk page, or on Adamstraw99's talk page. ANI is where you go when talking to the other user hasn't worked, it is not where you begin a discussion. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:56, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

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{{atop|(non-admin closure) Please use usefull summaries for closing messages. Unlike this one. d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 16:08, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
And no sentence fragments. EEng}}

I think the "Infobox" discussion on the Talk:Cary Grant was closed in an inappropriate manner. Instead of a proper close the discussion [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Cary_Grant&diff=762721649&oldid=762303194 was hidden] using the Template:Hat with the message "Aww jeez, not this again". When [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Cary_Grant&diff=778411293&oldid=770807273 I removed] the hid template, my edit [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Cary_Grant&diff=next&oldid=778411293 was reverted] and I received a message on my talk page to "Please do not do this again. Thanks."

If this is an appropriate manner to close a discussion, then please let me know. Thanks. Mitchumch (talk) 09:57, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

:See [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Cary_Grant/Archive_3#Missing_infobox here] - that conversation was unlikely to go anywhere. Unless you are formally going to start an RFC on re-adding an infobox, I wouldnt go there. It was removed as a result of a GA review based on the consensus of the people involved in editing the article. People occasionally turn up asking for an infobox without realising the history. Infoboxs *can* be contentious in parts of wikipedia. Chiefly those areas which have dedicated active editors. So 'not this again' is not an uncommon response when there have been less than civil arguments previously. Only in death does duty end (talk) 10:18, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

:{{ec|2}} I see from the history of that talk page that an infobox was removed because one GA reviewer thought it was "bloated" and that all discussion about having an infobox since has been shut down before a consensus was reached. Whether an RfC would be a good idea or not I don't know, but "Aww jeez, not this again" is not an appropriate closure notice as it does not help anyone not already familiar with the history to understand the reasoning. Thryduulf (talk) 10:22, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

::It shouldnt have been shut down by We hope regardless, as they contributed both at the GA review and in the previous archived discussion. Only in death does duty end (talk) 10:30, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

{{od}}For the record-the discussion was closed by an admin who was NOT involved in the discussion on [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Cary_Grant&diff=762721649&oldid=762303194 30 January], not by me. We hope (talk) 10:45, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

:Please do not re-open closed discussions without good reason. That particularly applies when the discussion finished on 27 January 2017, just over two months ago. The background is at WP:ARBINFOBOX. Johnuniq (talk) 10:27, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

:That was out of process and not an appropriate action, administrative or otherwise; it violates WP:TPG. I have re-opened the thread and made a suggestion as to how to resolve the issue. Softlavender (talk) 11:22, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

::{{Reply|User talk:Only in death}} {{Reply|Johnuniq}} I want to stress that the issue is not related to the topic covered by the discussion. The only issue is the manner a discussion was closed. I have never seen a discussion "closed" in this manner. Mitchumch (talk) 10:30, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

:::It happens. What's still unclear is why the obsession of some users against infoboxes - putting their rigid style ideas ahead of what the readers might like to see. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 10:33, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

:::(EC) Generally they are not unless its particularly contentious and something that has been discussed repeatedly. A quick 'see previous consensus' close sometimes heads off long non-productive discussions. Unless you are actually going to formally propose re-adding the infobox (and it would require a formal RFC for this article, anything less would be wikilawyered to death) I would not re-open it. Procedually there is scope for an RFC to re-add it. It was removed after being in the article for a significant period of time, as a result of the Good Article reviewers personal preference recommendation (GA criteria can neither prohibit or mandate infoboxs) which will of course mean that anyone working on the article will remove the infobox because they want it to be a GA. Likewise there was vocal opposition to it being removed and calls for it to be returned. Only in death does duty end (talk) 10:37, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

::::Maybe it's contentious because it doesn't make sense. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 10:43, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

:::How many bitter battles have you seen? Battles that have extended literally over years and which very nearly resulted in the banning of a very prolific editor (who supports infoboxes!) at Arbitration? Of course it's not an appropriate way to close a discussion. However, walk a mile in their shoes before digging up dirt. What benefit to the encyclopedia do you hope to achieve? Johnuniq (talk) 10:37, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

::::What benefit to the encyclopedia by putting rigid styling ahead of what readers might want? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 10:43, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

:Ignore those above who are talking about infoboxes. Why's it necessary to hide a closed discussion? Well, it's not. There is a difference between what you did, which was to re-open the discussion, and using {{tl|archive top}} which would have been more appropriate. Let those who want to argue for hiding the discussion then do so. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 10:39, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

::{{Reply|zzuuzz}} Could you add the {{tl|archive top}} to the discussion? Especially, since I accidentally re-opened the discussion. Thanks. Mitchumch (talk) 10:53, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

:::It's my preference to not even close most discussions, however I would favour an unhidden discussion over a hidden one any day. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 10:56, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

:::{{Reply|zzuuzz}} Where do I go to have an admin close the discussion? Mitchumch (talk) 11:02, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

::::ATOP is not necessary in all cases. It is generally used on high volume pages to force archiving (when a discussion has reached a resolution and is not going to be changed) to prevent the page getting too large. Otherwise archiving is handled either by bot (if the talkpage has been set up to archive) or someone manually doing it (Oneclick etc). Its not a busy talkpage so there is no rush due to page size. Someone will get round to it eventually. Not all discussions need formal closure either. Only in death does duty end (talk) 11:04, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

:::::The Cary Grant talk page discussion was closed by an admin who was NOT involved in the discussion on [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Cary_Grant&diff=762721649&oldid=762303194 30 January] We hope (talk) 11:06, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

::::::It was hatted, not closed. There was no explanation of why it was hatted, HAT is not generally used for entire discussions, its used to hat parts of discussions that are off-topic etc or to collapse large pieces of information to make a discussion more readable. Only in death does duty end (talk) 11:10, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

::::::That was out of process and not an appropriate action, administrative or otherwise; it violates WP:TPG. I have re-opened the thread and made a suggestion as to how to resolve the issue. Softlavender (talk) 11:22, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

• I have un-collapsed it. There is no reason to collapse entire threads on a talk page. There is in particular no cause to collapse one with a rude summary. That said, the best way to deal with the eternal infobox question is to create an official WP:RfC on whether to include one on that particular article. There really is no other way to resolve the issue. Softlavender (talk) 10:48, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
• Well, hi folks! Intrigued by this collegial comment [https://en.wikipedia.org/?curid=9847891&diff=778493449&oldid=778438664] looks like I wandered into the middle of a gunfight [https://en.wikipedia.org/?curid=175063&diff=778493998&oldid=778490653]. Cary on. I'm popping some popcorn. EEng 13:36, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

:: I assume you purposefully mispelled carry a) we're talking about Cary Grant and b) so people don't go picking up sticks. d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 13:54, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

• Isn't it well past time for the "Not this shit again!" image? It appears to be running late today. Black Kite (talk) 15:02, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

::There's a wide selection of images to choose from at User:EEng#Alle-wiki-gory. EEng 15:07, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

• {{ec}}Whatever the merits or otherwise of an infobox on that article, repeatedly hatting a discussion started in good faith is not approrpiate, doubly so with a rude and uninformative closure notice. If there is truly a settled consensus then the discussion could have been closed, politely and without hatting, using a summary that pointed to where this consensus was established. Edit warring to reinstate the hat and try and intimidate other editors, as Cassianto did (see the links given by EEng above), is seriously out of order. Thryduulf (talk) 15:08, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
• I was referring to the fact that this must be at least the third time this has raised its head on just this article. Haven't people got better things to be doing with their time? Regarding the close, whilst it wasn't gone about in the best of ways, a link was given to the previous discussion. Black Kite (talk) 15:21, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
• Oh really, {{u|Thryduulf}}, so if you hatted a discussion only for someone to then ignore that and carry on the shit-fest three months later, that would be ok, would it? I'll bear that in mind the next time I've seen you hat something Cassianto^Talk 20:54, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
• Don't edit war. Even if you think you are in the right, don't edit war. Thryduulf (talk) 22:04, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
• {{u|Thryduulf|So}} this only applies to someone who thinks they're right, rather than someone {{u|Softlavender|who is blatantly wrong}}? This person, who also thinks they're right, by the way, are also up to 2rr; tell me, what is your opinion on that? I've unwatched the article as I don't really give a flying fuck about it, but I think consistency should be applied (which it won't). Cassianto^Talk 04:50, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
• Ok, let's try something that cannot be twisted this time: Do not edit war, ever, regardless of circumstances, reasons, beliefs, knowledge, or anything else, do not edit war, ever. If somebody else is edit warring, don't join in, ever. Thryduulf (talk) 08:37, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
• I closed the discussion originally because Cassianto wrote "[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Cary_Grant&diff=prev&oldid=762303194 Let's have a sodding infobox and be done with it.]" Given I have seem him get quite heated and angry about infoboxes elsewhere, I suspected we were going to be in for another screaming match with incivility flying around left, right and centre, and I thought it was best to stop the problem before it started, with a notice I hoped would put light on the situation and calm people down a bit. I didn't fully appreciate not everyone has Cassianto's sense of humour and I do apologise to people who felt I was shutting them out unfairly. If people want to start a new discussion and keep it civil and in good faith, there's no reason they can't; but they do need to realise they are revisiting contentious ground. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 16:42, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

::That poor Cassianto might start spitting and spewing and sputtering and spiting at everyone in sight if he gets frustrated isn't a reason to close a discussion. I've left the collapse but restored Softlavender's removed comment in a new subthread just beneath [https://en.wikipedia.org/?diff=778537572&oldid=778512049]. Now everyone wins! EEng 19:05, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

:::The principal thing I really want to avoid if at all possible is Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Infoboxes 2, but I've got a sinking feeling it's going to happen sooner rather than later. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 19:12, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

::::I think someone should create {{t|Infobox infobox dispute}} so we can summarize threads like this in a handy, compact way for the benefit of editors who want a quick overview of what the fuck the argument is about, who the principal disputants are, and so on. EEng 19:39, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

• My issue is not of the infobox but of the opening of an admin-hatted discussion which was reopened by someone who clearly likes [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Bernard_Lee&diff=760246100&oldid=760242804 the dramah of it all]. This kind of repeated discussion is disruptive and causes unnessersary ill-feeling. This was hatted on [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Cary_Grant&diff=762721649&oldid=762303194 30 January 2017] and here we are, three months later, digging up the same bloody corpse. I have no particular affiliation with this subject as it's not one I have spent my precious time and hard-earned money working on, so I don't really care one way or the other. But someone has and for whatever reason, they have chosen to omit an idiotbox. Out of respect, they should be directly consulted. Cassianto^Talk 20:42, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
• An idiotbox, i.e. for the idiots who read Wikipedia. Good attitude. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:13, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

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{{atop||result= Looks like it's OK now folks, and thanks NeilN for fixing the AFD. If a few others have added the article to their watchlists, that would be handy too. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 15:25, 4 May 2017 (UTC) (and the big dog down the end of the street says hi.)}}

We have a new editor trying to get CESNUR deleted, but I can't get them to use the right process. They've tried WP:G11 and WP:A7 (they tagged for G11 and argued for A7 on the talk page!), and both are clearly inapplicable so I declined the request. They have also removed dead links (even though a couple of them already had archive links included), and have added tags to the article without explaining on the talk page when asked. Now they are repeatedly using WP:PROD even though I have declined it once and have explained they need to use WP:AFD (and even though they actually keep saying they will use WP:AFD). Oh, and they are accusing me of being connected to the director of the organization. I can't take any admin action because I have become slightly involved in the content (I fixed up some refs and added some new ones) and if the editor thinks I'm connected with the organization then it would be better for me to keep away from admin tools anyway, but this is becoming quite disruptive. Please see User talk:Juliano202 and Talk:CESNUR#Contested deletion to see the whole thing for yourself, and I'd be grateful if someone could please provide whatever further explanation/warning/whatever that you think appropriate. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 14:06, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

:I think the editor's last post on the article's talk page shows they've seen the light. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 14:11, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

:{{ec}} Actually, we've just had the response "I did not set out to offend you in some way. I just did not understand the reason for removing my editing. Thank you for pointing out my mistake. Thank you for explaining my mistake. I apologize, I did not mean to offend you in any way. Now you have pointed out my mistake and I will correct it" at Talk:CESNUR#Contested deletion, so there's probably no immediate action needed - but I'd still be grateful for some admin eyes on it, as I need to go and do something more calming and relaxing now, like pick a fight with the big dog down the end of the street. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 14:15, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

::{{tq|I need to go and do something more calming and relaxing now, like pick a fight with the big dog down the end of the street.}} I've always found gladiatorial combat to be quite relaxing myself. I've a spare trident and suit of slightly skimpy armor if you want to give it a shot. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 14:18, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

:::Is that a hammer in your pants, or are you just pl... ? Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 14:52, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

::::Oh, I'm always happy to see you, Boing ;) But yeah, actually that is a hammer. I really need to buy a tool belt. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 15:12, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

:::Oh! Its ok (Premjeeyi (talk) 14:57, 4 May 2017 (UTC))

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::So it seems that no further acceptance that their behaviour was unacceptable seems likely to be forthcoming where do we want to go from here? {{ping|Boing! said Zebedee|Beyond My Ken|Rexx|Iridescent|Tarage|Kudpung|User:Only in death|DrKay}} I think that's everyone who has commented on this thread. Thryduulf (talk) 10:11, 3 May 2017 (UTC) {{ping|RexxS}} let's try with an S this time. Thryduulf (talk) 10:12, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

• With a raft of admins plus {{U|RexxS}} (who isn't one but who ought to be and doesn't want to be,) having pretty much been generous in not carrying out their threats to block, and other suggesting suggesting a re-run at RfA, DrKay's refusal only really leaves the other path open. Arbcom's not perfect but it doesn't make many mistakes so I suggest we offer the case to them. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 12:39, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
• Mountain-molehill. As long as they accept they are *wrong* about the RFC and wont edit-war on similar issues. Anything else is asking for a long drawn-out case. Unless someone has some genuine concerns other than related to this issue of course. Only in death does duty end (talk) 12:49, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
• I don't see where DrKay has accepted they were wrong about the RfC - in fact, the "remove harassment from disruptive editors who find themselves in the minority against a longstanding community decision, and so are attempting to subvert it" comment suggests quite the opposite. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 13:10, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

I might be missing something, but has DrKay acted as an admin at all in this dispute? Were the tools used in anyway by DrKay? El_C 12:52, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

:No, but misuse of admin tools is not the only thing that can result in sanctions against admins. There is a chilling effect of admins edit warring while warning others to stop (and this is someone with 4 blocks for edit warring since becoming an admin - blocks which have apparently not taught them anything), and there are other examples of potentially bad behaviour that I'm still considering (and will not publicize here). I think ArbCom would offer a fair look over this, and I think it needs some resolution. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 13:10, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

::It's just that there's calls for reconfirmation (and, by extension, desysop); but the tools played no role, thus, adminship does seem like a non-issue here. El_C 13:18, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

:::{{ping|El_C}} WP:ADMINCOND is something we all agree to follow as admins. And that has little to do with use of the tools. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 13:30, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

::::I'm not an admin, but as an uninvolved editor I think taking this to ArbCom would probably be best. There is no reason for an admin to tell someone to "fuck off", there comes a point when if one gets angry, the best thing to do is to just stop editing. Gamebuster19901 (Talk║Contributions) 13:35, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

:::::Arbitration case seems like an overreaction. Admins are humans and are allowed to err. El_C 13:59, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

::::::Are they? d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 14:49, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

:::::::"Occasional mistakes are entirely compatible with adminship; administrators are not expected to be perfect" answers "allowed to err" question. I can't speak to if we're all human, being accused of being a robot more than once. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 14:54, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

{{od}} As the originator of this thread, I have to say that at this moment, I think the point has been made to {{u|DrKay}}. I'm sensitive to his admission that his rudeness "came about largely because of private events off-wiki involving the ill-health of a third person." Some of you may understand why this is so. He is a very long-term contributor and, in my humble opinion, remains a net positive to the encyclopedia, despite a predilection to edit-war. We all know how difficult it can be to admit mistakes, and it's rarely productive to ask for an apology, because we all create our own internal narrative of events that justifies our actions. Knowing when to say "sorry" genuinely is the hardest part of self-awareness. Given all of that, my advice would be not to proceed with an ArbCom case. I don't doubt that DrKay will have been given pause to reflect on what has been said here, and I sincerely hope he'll take that with him in his future contributions. --RexxS (talk) 14:36, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

• OK, I've been thinking about this, and I admit I'm torn. I do think there are behavioural problems and that it's not a one-off (four edit-warring blocks since becoming an admin, which would certainly have been five had I seen the edit war while it was in progress), chillingly warning an edit-war opponent that they can't go beyond 3RR while both were at 3RR, and the rest of it... But, there is the "ill-health of a third person" thing, DrKay most definitely is a big net positive to the project, and I tend to trust RexxS's judgment in such things (notwithstanding my general trust of others' judgments which might be in opposition, aargh). There is another (possibly minor) issue which I have contacted an ArbCom member about to seek clarification, but I'll leave that like that. On balance now, I'm coming down on the side of hoping that DrKay has actually taken note of the requirements of WP:ADMINCOND and what went wrong there (despite the actual lack of evidence that he has), and I would not now recommend an ArbCom case after all and I will not start one - though I won't argue too strongly against it if others wish to do so. Either way, I think this needs to be a "last chance" heads-up on that poor record of edit warring. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 15:53, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

As much as I appreciate being notified about this again, I have no faith in the current system changing anything. I suspect this will fall into the archives with no actions taken and no close. Par for the course. --Tarage (talk) 18:26, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

:This being archiving without a close is exactly what I'm trying to avoid here (and above re SimomTrew). Thryduulf (talk) 21:07, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

::Oh I know you are. I'm just saying no one with the ability to do anything is going to. --Tarage (talk) 08:38, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

----

: The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

{{Archive top|result=Accounts unblocked. SQL^{Query me!} 02:17, 5 May 2017 (UTC)}}

The two accounts User:Shahadusadik and User:Joy Agyepong have been incorrectly identified as sockpuppets. They may well have shared an Internet connection at editing meetups, but these two are distinct people I have met in person in the course of my work at the Foundation.

The blocking admin announced they're away for a couple of days, and it would be good if the unjustified block can be lifted sooner. See discussion on their talk page. Thanks. Asaf (WMF) (talk) 16:16, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

:These are checkuser blocks which may not be undone by any admin that is not a checkuser. Consensus here would not outweigh that policy. Defer to Wikipedia talk:CheckUser to make this form of appeal. This is up to the CUs to resolve.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 16:52, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

:Btw, these accounts are all being looked at as meatpuppets so being different people in real life does not mean that there has necessarily been a mistake.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 16:55, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

::If that is the case (and I assume an employee of the Foundation would not be involved in deliberate deception in this regard) then it is very likely that the editor operating the Daniel Kobe Ricks Jr sockfarm was also in attendance at the meetup in question. In terms of policy, I believe any Checkuser may approve an unblock in the case of the blocking Checkuser being unavailable, as {{ul|KrakatoaKatie}} currently is. So, {{tlx|checkuser needed}} to comment on the unblock request.

::Alternatively, {{ul|Asaf (WMF)}}, if there is an urgent need for the Office to step over the usual community review processes and expedite this action, you can contact the functionaries. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 17:28, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

::::Now that the Committee is going to review the blocks, I see no need for a CU.--Bbb23 (talk) 20:45, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

:::Thank you, {{ul|Ivanvector}}. There is no particular urgency, except the obvious frustration of those users not being able to edit. So by all means, we should have the usual community review process. Asaf (WMF) (talk) 17:39, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

• Looking at this, I would say that the two editors concerned have been caught up in this by editing from the same IP address as the sockmaster concerned. There doesn't appear to be much correlation to their editing, so unless I've got something completely wrong I would suggest unblocking. Black Kite (talk) 17:51, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

::Probably so, but policy is clear that Checkuser blocks may not be removed without a Checkuser's approval. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 19:04, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

I've raised this thread on the ArbCom mailing list and requested a review. Thanks. Newyorkbrad (talk) 19:36, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

:The accounts have now been unblocked. PhilKnight (talk) 02:14, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

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{{atop|(non-admin closure) Here ye hear ye, user blocked 48 by NeilN for disruption of the Project. And how do you color text? d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 01:51, 5 May 2017 (UTC) }}

{{user links|Pratikdave04}}

This user repeatedly is making inappropriate, autobiographical pages. At this point it is vandalism or a CIR issue. EvergreenFir (talk) 19:18, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

: I deleted the pages they created, and I'm going to leave a message on their page regarding their creation of pages. If they keep it up, a block's going to be in order at least a short one, possibly longer. RickinBaltimore (talk) 19:21, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

::{{ping|RickinBaltimore}} I blocked for 48 hours before I saw this. Blanking their page indicated they were aware of previous warnings. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 19:29, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

:::I saw that, works for me. RickinBaltimore (talk) 19:29, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

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{{atop|(non-admin closure) OP blocked 1 week for EW, not understanding, and block evasion by IP. d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 01:41, 5 May 2017 (UTC)}}

{{user links|Dan56}}

Despite there being a talk page for Harlem Shake (Song) related to the edits that were taking place, the user Dan56 has decided to forego this process and revert changes repeatedly without discussing them. I think this user needs to be blocked from editing to prevent further vandalism, at least temporarily. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cheeseman585 (talk • contribs) 20:01, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Harlem_Shake_%28song%29&action=history — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cheeseman585 (talk • contribs) 20:02, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

:Removal of a source that is a self-published, non-reliable source is definitely not vandalism. Replacing a valid source with an invalid one repeatedly, especially after being told as such on multiple talk pages however is. RickinBaltimore (talk) 20:05, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

:: Yep, and I responded to the talk page. And I've only reverted twice, so far... Dan56 (talk) 20:09, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

:::WP:3RR does say "An editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page—whether involving the same or different material—within a 24-hour period". Indeed, you've had more than 24 hours for these edits. RickinBaltimore (talk) 20:11, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

:Dan56 seems to be in the clear here. RileyBugz^会話_投稿記録 20:15, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

:: More importantly, this person (previously as 50.204.132.106, more recently as Cheeseman585) has been reinserting this change into the article and starting an edit war for the past four days; the preponderance of sources--including those reporting on the lawsuit specifying the exact sample being "Maldades"--say "Maldades", but this person, Cheeseman or whatever, again added an inappropriate source and then an appropriate source whose writer concedes he is not sure about what the sample exactly is. Can someone intervene? I've reverted for a third time, and judging by the tone of Cheeseman's comments at the talk page, they're not going to take anything I say seriously--there's genuinely a competency issue. Dan56 (talk) 20:38, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

::: I mean, just read this ranting. Dan56 (talk) 20:45, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

• [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Harlem_Shake_%28song%29&type=revision&diff=778696560&oldid=778535675 14:28, 4 May 2017] (as IP, reverting what had been undone on [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Harlem_Shake_%28song%29&type=revision&diff=778393462&oldid=778391255 2 May])
• [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Harlem_Shake_%28song%29&type=revision&diff=778706993&oldid=778699999 15:36, 4 May 2017] (again as IP)
• [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Harlem_Shake_%28song%29&type=revision&diff=778714559&oldid=778707467 16:31, 4 May 2017]
• [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Harlem_Shake_%28song%29&type=revision&diff=778717164&oldid=778715075 16:51, 4 May 2017]
• [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Harlem_Shake_(song)&diff=prev&oldid=778719115 17:07, 4 May 2017]
• [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Harlem_Shake_%28song%29&type=revision&diff=778722371&oldid=778722285 17:34, 4 May 2017]

{{ping|RickinBaltimore}}, {{ping|RileyBugz}} Dan56 (talk) 21:00, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

:Very clear civility issues here. Personal attacks, a complete failure to understand reliable sources, and an over zealous attempt to right 'great wrongs'. Boomerang. --Tarage (talk) 21:02, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

::And he's still edit warring. Block him please. --Tarage (talk) 21:34, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

::: The content in question has a clear and absolute truth to it. This is the only thing that should be discussed. The fact is, I corrected information on the page and it has been reverted multiple times for no reason by the users Dan56 and Tarage, even after I added multiple proper sources with proof directly proving the information I added. There is no need for an edit war. I won't leave the content of this page as incorrect.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Cheeseman585 (talk • contribs) 22:11, May 4, 2017 (UTC)

:::: Welp, you're still wrong then buddy. Dan56 (talk) 22:18, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

{{od}}*Boomerang. Blocked account one week and hardblocked his IP for the same. IP socking and edit warring.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 22:48, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

{{abot}}

{{Clear}}

File:US_Navy_091003-N-3404S-163_U.S._Naval_Academy_safety_Emmett_Merchant_(%5E7)_gets_a_block_from_linebacker_Tyler_Simmons_(%5E54).jpg

File:GeddyLee.JPG

{{resolved|sock blocked in a rush. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 06:39, 5 May 2017 (UTC)}}

{{vandal|Kaylor2017now}} is an obvious sock of {{vandal|Kaylor2012}} currently polluting Canadian kid's networks articles with 'old show which is long dead will have a revival this year but I have zero sources except for my own pretend world' nonsense. I've filed an SPI, but it's taking awhile to notice, and they keep looping the same vandalism. Can I get a rush block? (no point to dropping an ANI notice to their page as they just reset their standard offer with this vandalism). Thanks in advance. Nate • (chatter) 06:20, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

:{{done}}, thanks. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 06:39, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

{{Clear}}

{{atop|(non-admin closure) Per OP request. d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 12:25, 5 May 2017 (UTC)}}

{{Userlinks|IkbenFrank}} appears to be making a high level of mildly disruptive edits over a period of time, and appears to be promoting Railways and cycling out of proportion WP:PROPORTION to articles. WP:RUNAWAY may apply. Behavior has been warned previously. Some information useful, for example {{la|Rosses Point}} but was added in an unuseful way. An example of railway content being added in is {{la|Harold Wilson}} [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Harold_Wilson&type=revision&diff=778458545&oldid=778212612 (difflink)]. An addition to {{la|Harold_Macmillan}} [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Harold_Macmillan&type=revision&diff=778458187&oldid=777637212 (difflink)] also appears to have 'forced' railway content. {{la|Quedgeley}} [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Quedgeley&type=revision&diff=777696948&oldid=777397786 (difflink) ] seems to have given opinion of the safety of the cycleway not backed by a subsequent citation. Reviewing other random edits seem to yield a significant number of mildly questionable contributions that would require re-work. Djm-leighpark (talk) 17:37, 4 May 2017 (UTC) A more obvious case of issues occurs at {{la||Wotton Gloucester}}[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wotton%2C_Gloucester&type=revision&diff=778307815&oldid=711568085 (difflink)] with cycleways being promoted out of WP:PROPORTION. More subtle and debateable issues are {{la|Transport in the United Kingdom}} [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Transport_in_the_United_Kingdom&type=revision&diff=777594623&oldid=772485463 (difflink)] where an out of proportion rail picture was added .. though there may have been a minor WP:EDITWAR here ... see {{la|Transport in the United Kingdom}} [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Transport_in_the_United_Kingdom&type=revision&diff=772009808&oldid=768455439 (difflink)] .. the main issue is the disproportate rail images on a general transport article. Djm-leighpark (talk) 21:35, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

Djm-leighpark (talk) 02:24, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

• I looked at one bike path and reverted the edit, but Djm-leighpark, this is ANI--this is the last resort. This is where you go to get an admin to intervene. Now, you [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:IkbenFrank&diff=778557319&oldid=765883618 left a message] on the user's talk page, but it's captured within a templated warning, and the first time I read their talk page I totally missed it. The editor hasn't edited since that warning/attempt at communication, but you dragged them to ANI anyway. Can I ask you to just please NOT start with a warning? Post a message on their talk page, a clear one, and discuss the matter. I see no need whatsoever to take administrative action: I do not now what the policy violation is, and adding stuff about a bike lane or two is not disruptive. Thank you, Drmies (talk) 02:28, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
• I was thinking of replying as follows, but has determined I need a WP:BREAK and need to apologise to the user.
• If I goto revert/modify more of his contributions I could end up with a WP:HOUND or WP:3RR even with best intentions and efforts; even if I started conversations on even talk page. Contribution to {{la|Harold MacMillan}} [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Harold_Macmillan&type=revision&diff=778458187&oldid=777637212 (difflink)] may have a valid point but again notice the use of bold text and lack of WP:PROPORTION, Because of contributions over a series of articles Wikipedia:Neutral point of view is questionable. Modus operandi seems to be stop on warning ... do not engage in talk ... wait for a period ... and restart. User_talk:IkbenFrank#Railways_-_please_stop illustrates the issues with back fixing edits and people's frustration doing so. An approproach might be for someone neutral to quickly review all user contributions which is what is needed for a [WP:RUNAWAY].
• Please feel free to close this Djm-leighpark (talk) 09:57, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

{{abot}}

{{Clear}}

{{atop|(non-admin closure) Not egregious, and I do disagree with some stuff stated, but matter has been dropped. d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 01:59, 5 May 2017 (UTC)}}

I believe that User:This is Paul has repeatedly acted very uncivilly towards me with no justification.

The issue seemed to begin after I made a single good faith [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bill_Potts&diff=prev&oldid=777124213 revert] in light of guidelines on the matter on which I had previously been uninvolved. My commit and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Bill_Potts&diff=prev&oldid=777124352 Talk page comment] gave my rationale on my actions.

From here I will let the diffs from This is Paul speak for themselves: [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ABill_Potts&type=revision&diff=777128695&oldid=777125984], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Bill_Potts&diff=prev&oldid=777145538], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ABill_Potts&type=revision&diff=777191525&oldid=777181309], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ABill_Potts&type=revision&diff=777225870&oldid=777223047]

My responses were defensive and sometimes a bit snarky in places, however I believe remained relatively civil considering the responses I was receiving. In the end, I tried to address the issue directly on his talk page [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:This_is_Paul&diff=prev&oldid=777251097]

However rather than take the feedback on board, This is Paul instead continued with the behaviour and responded with another personal attack: [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AThis_is_Paul&type=revision&diff=777975762&oldid=777251097]

I believe that the wiki community has a pillar and consensus that we shouldn’t accept this sort of behaviour, which is the main reason that has lead me to lodge this report. Thank you for your time. Dresken (talk) 20:45, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

:While I admit I shouldn't have accused both parties of colluding, I doubt my other comments that day would be construed as uncivil. But if others disagree then I'll accept that they were. Incidentally I wasn't the first to raise the issue of Wikilawyering. The way this user and AlexTheWhovian conducted themselves during the discussions at Talk:Bill Potts and Talk:Bill Potts (Doctor Who) was not in keeping with how we should behave on here. If I'm guilty of anything it was being irritated with the way Alex tried to slap down everyone who opposed the page move, and the intimidating tone he used. But this was all a week ago now, and I thought we'd moved on. As regards the SPI report, both parties behaved in a manner that made me suspect they could be linked, so I filed the report. I'm pleased for all of us that I was wrong, since AlexTheWhovian has some responsibilities, and a yes from the SPI check would have reflected badly on Wikipedia. I suggest we all move on. This is Paul (talk) 21:19, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

:It can't be nice being accused of sock-/meat-puppetry, but since the case went to SPI and you were exonerated, I think I'd leave it there. If you consider the tone of This is Paul's comments to be so incivil as to require administrator intervention then I think you have a very thin skin. In some of these diffs you might have a point that WP:ASPERSIONS are being cast, but then he took it to SPI along with the evidence he had and it's been dealt with. I'm struggling to see anything else that's a problem in the diffs you've offered. My advice is to let it go. GoldenRing (talk) 05:00, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

:: I only learnt about the SPI report from This is Paul's response in this thread here - so my lodging this report has nothing to do with that. I lodged the report because there was at least one personal attack in 100% of the responses to me from This is Paul, they are highlighted [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:This_is_Paul&diff=prev&oldid=777251097 here] if they weren't clear in the other diffs - then his response to my raising this with him was another personal attack. I had followed the rest of the advice at WP:CIVIL and that appears to lead here. I believe this behaviour to be against WP:5P4 and I also believed the [https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_health_initiative Wikipedia community] was in support of doing more to curb this sort of behaviour. Dresken (talk) 06:57, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

{{abot}}

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{{archive-top|Oversight taking a look. Emailing functionaries is generally the best thing to do if you want to chase an OS request. Thryduulf (talk) 11:47, 5 May 2017 (UTC)}}

I emailed Oversight at 21:53 UTC yesterday, the 4th of May. It is now 10:54 on the 5th, and I have had no response (except for the automated copy of the email). It concerned a false claim in the lead of an article that a living person had been imprisoned. Is this delay normal nowadays? DuncanHill (talk) 10:57, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

:I always get a speedy response from Oversight myself. Anyway, I've rev-deleted the offending content as a BLP violation, so that should help until someone from oversight looks at it. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 11:07, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

:By the way, just as a suggestion, if you remove content that you believe needs to be rev-deleted or suppressed by oversight, it might be better not to leave an obvious edit summary that would draw people's attention to it. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 11:09, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

::Thanks, I've usually had quick responses from them in the past, maybe it's their Wakes Week. If I didn't leave the detailed edit summary then it would be harder for you to find and RevDel! DuncanHill (talk) 11:17, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

:::Oversight will tend to be quick with the low-hanging problems, and will often hesitate a bit where something is not so straightforward. Without going into much detail, this was on a very fine line. I'd actually be surprised if it was oversighted. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 11:18, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

::::A fine line? Seriously? I won't bother if that's the attitude then. DuncanHill (talk) 11:22, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

:::::I could put the information in a way that's technically correct, and it would look exceedingly similar. Anyway, hopefully oversight will get back to you soon. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 11:46, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

If you want to contact an oversighter, e.g. to check on the status of a request, then it's best to email the functionaries {{email|functionaries-en|lists.wikimedia.org}} as this avoid drawing unnecessary attention to what you want oversighted (the Streisand effect is a thing). Anyway, I'll take a look at the ticket now and deal with it if none of my colleagues has. Thryduulf (talk)11:47, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

{{archive-bottom}}

I feel that this editors use of edit warring/WP:STICK, drama/reality perception, and accusations of personal attacks have not improved since their previous blocks for this behavior.

• {{userlinks|Senor Freebie}}

See history leading to previous blocks at Talk:Battle_of_Brisbane and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Senor_Freebie&oldid=775967595].

Drama/reality perception:

• [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Radiation_effects_from_the_Fukushima_Daiichi_nuclear_disaster&type=revision&diff=777104249&oldid=776128042 Removal of source supporting statement in article, while claiming material is unsourced]. He has continued to blank the content despite my documentation, with quotes from the source, that the statement is indeed verifiable, ie [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ARadiation_effects_from_the_Fukushima_Daiichi_nuclear_disaster&type=revision&diff=777108778&oldid=777106213], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Radiation_effects_from_the_Fukushima_Daiichi_nuclear_disaster&diff=next&oldid=777667928].
• [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Radiation_effects_from_the_Fukushima_Daiichi_nuclear_disaster&diff=next&oldid=777105139 Obviously inaccurate claim of "unsourced"]. Repeated claim of [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ARadiation_effects_from_the_Fukushima_Daiichi_nuclear_disaster&type=revision&diff=777105953&oldid=776617148 "no corresponding source"] after blanking what was [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Radiation_effects_from_the_Fukushima_Daiichi_nuclear_disaster&oldid=777695052#Psychological_effects_of_perceived_radiation_exposure source #49].
• [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Radiation_effects_from_the_Fukushima_Daiichi_nuclear_disaster&diff=next&oldid=777105587 Claim of "unsupported" to content that faithfully matches source], as pointed out [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Radiation_effects_from_the_Fukushima_Daiichi_nuclear_disaster&diff=next&oldid=777289896 here]
• [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Radiation_effects_from_the_Fukushima_Daiichi_nuclear_disaster&type=revision&diff=777287259&oldid=777159353 Here] we have already agreed that this paragraph is unwarranted, but SF accidentally reverted it back in. [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ARadiation_effects_from_the_Fukushima_Daiichi_nuclear_disaster&type=revision&diff=777830177&oldid=777760977 Here] is SF's response to my observation that we are in agreement.
• Described content as [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Radiation_effects_from_the_Fukushima_Daiichi_nuclear_disaster&diff=next&oldid=777105953 "unsourced"] after a 2nd citation was added at his request.

Personal attack allegations:

• [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ASenor_Freebie&type=revision&diff=777665894&oldid=777468986]
• [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Radiation_effects_from_the_Fukushima_Daiichi_nuclear_disaster&diff=next&oldid=777245163]
• [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Radiation_effects_from_the_Fukushima_Daiichi_nuclear_disaster&type=revision&diff=777829697&oldid=777695052]

The content disagreement would be solvable without the behavior issues; the article needs a lot of work but it is not going to be fixed with mass blanking and hyperbole.

Notified [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ASenor_Freebie&action=historysubmit&type=revision&diff=777844598&oldid=777709127]. VQuakr (talk) 17:08, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

• Poke. d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 15:15, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

I have some trouble getting User:Carolus to understand that, when creating articles (or inside articles as well), he shouldn't invent "English" names for people who have had so far not received any attention in English language sources. I first tried to explain this at User talk:Carolus#Caspar vs. Caspard and at Talk:Gaspar Gevartius, which he had created at Joannes Gaspard Gevartius, a name which was not used anywhere before Carolus' creation.

Today, I notice Constantin of Halmale, which has a novel name and is filled with other names not to be found as such in any reliable source on the subject (plus containing a fair number of factual errors). I explained the problem with this one as well and moved it to Costen van Halmale, but his reply at User talk:Carolus#Inventing names is what sent me here: "Have fun, your party i will keep translate noble names, like normal." An unwillingness to cease with problematic behaviour is not promising for an editor who regularly runs into trouble with his edits here (see the section User talk:Carolus#Swedish Dowagers for another very recent example with another editor). Their user page proclams "This user has been on Wikipedia for 11 years, 8 months and 22 days", even though they have no edits here before April 2015. Probably it refers to [https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gebruiker:Carolus Gebruiker:Carolus] on the Dutch wiki, active since August 2005 and indef blocked there since July 2010...

Looking at his other recent edits more closely, I see other dubious things like using the edit summary "small edit" to change a long-standing redirect for an obvious primary topic into a kind of disambiguation page [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Rubens&diff=prev&oldid=776675986 here], edit warring over an infobox[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sigismund_von_Schrattenbach&action=history], ...

I don't think they are willing to listen to advice from me, so perhaps some other people can step in and try to educate the editor about what is and what isn't allowed on enwiki? Letting him continue unchecked doesn't seem like a good idea, and would only lead to sanctions further down the line, while now there may still be a chance to improve things. Fram (talk) 14:27, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

: I have learned (sometimes sadly, as in the case of Hedwig of Holstein, a Swedish queen whose name was not Hedwig at all, but Helwig) that in Wikipedia articles only names in frequent use in academic literature can be used and that unusual name forms must be sourced reliably. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 14:34, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

File:Guido Reni - Massacre of the Innocents detail3 - Pinacoteca Nazionale Bologna.jpgEng]]

::Not quite. Where there are English-language sources available, those (with some exceptions) are used to title the article. As ENWP is aimed at English-language speakers, it is preferable to use/reference English language sources. Fram's problem is that the user is translating names into English approximations *where no real English language sources exist*. Hedwig/Helwig had plenty of English sources available that called her Hedwig. So incorrect name aside, thats how she is titled. Had there been no/little English language sources available, she would more likely have been named Helvig per the Swedish sources. Here Fram is asserting the same, that the people should be named per their sources, because English ones are not available/in short supply. Personally someone needs to trout the user quickly, before this discussion draws the diacritic crowd... Only in death does duty end (talk) 15:12, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

• {{nacc}} I'm not entirely sure a trout is going to cut it here. Given [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Carolus&diff=778332206&oldid=778319750 this level] of gross IDHT, I think at the very least a stern warning may be needed. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 07:05, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
• : I would say a topic ban can be appropriate.--Ymblanter (talk) 07:10, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

:::{{re|Ymblanter}} What from, though? "Unsourced spellings of foreign names"? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 08:15, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

::::I noticed they aren't taking part in this discussion although they've still been editing, and clearly know about the discussion. Doug Weller talk 08:45, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

:::::{{re|Doug Weller}} That's exactly what they said they'd do, though, isn't it? As I said above, IDHT... Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 08:58, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

:::::: Topic ban on article creation? On creation of bio articles?--Ymblanter (talk) 10:17, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

:::::::Perhaps a topic ban on adding names without a reliable source for the exact form of the name, so that we at least can be certain that it was in use in reliable sources before it entered enwiki. Anyway NeilN has asked Carolus to participate here, and Carolus has asked if he may do so in Dutch; which raises the question of WP:CIR of course. Anyway, there are enough people here fluent in Dutch (myself, but also uninvolved editors) so we can translate whatever Carolus would post if needed. Fram (talk) 07:36, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

{{re|EEng}} Your levity is, as always, much appreciated, but in this case doesn't seem to be relevant unless one reads OID's comment below the above image very closely. ;-) Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 07:05, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

:I surmise you're reading on mobile, or some weird browser. EEng 07:23, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

::iPad. But if you look at the history, I originally posted the above directly below the line where you added the image, above OID's comment. I moved it because I realized (too late) that the placement between Serge and OID's comments made the first line of OID's comment nonsense, and the way the image was placed it wasn't even clear that that was what I was referring to (as my comment didn't display below the image). Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 08:02, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

{{archive top|result=Consensus is that {{u|RXX-7979Ⅲ}} is topic banned from editing about Japanese history and Japanese war crimes, under any account. This ban can be used as a reference point in case future sockpuppetry issues arise.--Cúchullain ^t/c 16:09, 8 May 2017 (UTC)}}

{{userlinks|RXX-7979Ⅲ}}

{{pagelinks|Statue of Peace}}

User has already been blocked once for whitewashing Japanese war crimes at Statue of Peace. While he was away, the IP address 210.142.104.167 spoke remarkably similarly at Talk:Statue_of_Peace#Wartime_Comfort_Women_by_Ministry_of_Foreign_Affairs_of_Japan. 210.142 said "Wikipedia must not be politically used by activists" as if {{u|Jim1138}} and I (two Americans with no relationship to Korea) were political activists, which is certainly in the lead the most ironic hypocrisy I've ever seen this year. Upon RXX's return, they continued their usual behavior.

If you look at that talk page section, you'll find a pretty clear case of a user whose only purpose is to "correct" our "imbalanced" article through historical denialism.

Ian.thomson (talk) 10:17, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

:It is not the same person. I show evidence for editing.--RXX-7979Ⅲ (talk) 10:19, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

::The editor behind the 210.142 IP addresses writes like you, argues for the same ideas, is active in the same location as you, and is only active when you are logged out. Ian.thomson (talk) 10:26, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

:::It is not the same person. I will ask you not to block while continuing the discussion.--RXX-7979Ⅲ (talk) 10:29, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

::::Saying "it is not the same person" a second time is not proof. The reason I started this thread is because you've shown that there's no point in discussion -- you are not going to listen because you have locked yourself in a far-right nationalist echo chamber that denies what many Japanese historians and the rest of the world acknowledges. Ian.thomson (talk) 10:33, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

:::::Would it be premature to call for a topic ban against such revisionism? El_C 22:13, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

:::I would suggest a WP:Checkuser. I support either a topic ban on Japanese war crimes or an indefinite block. ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 08:41, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

::::AFAIK, CU doesn't/can't work on IP addressess. Per beans, its all rather mysterious what they will and will not do. d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 14:30, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

:::::It's an issue with privacy more than anything; CUs won't out a user's IP unless the abuse is particularly egregious. —Jeremy v^_^v ^Bori! 00:02, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

• Topic ban. Having read the discussion at Talk:Statue of Peace#Wartime Comfort Women by Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Japan I support a topic ban. As scope I suggest maybe Japanese history (broadly construed) - going for "Japanese war crimes" is something they might not properly comprehend as they appear to be a war crimes denialist, and Japanese history is open to far less interpretation. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 10:13, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
• TB 1 month for Japanese History and 2 for Japanese war crimes, serve consecutively. Failure to adhere to one can result in an extension of the other or a block. d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 14:26, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
• support TBAN ≈ (not timed out, just plain old TBAN) after having read the talk page. One very clear POV and no sign of relenting or addressing NPOV policy. Jytdog (talk) 20:17, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
• support TBAN - clearly not grasping the whole idea of NPOV. Ealdgyth - Talk 11:53, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

• So is this TB being implemented? d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 00:42, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

{{archive bottom}}

This is a courtesy notice that a community-imposed indef block of {{noping|Riceissa}} that was imposed here at ANI was undone without any discussion, at the covert (off-wiki) request of {{noping|Ethanbas}}, who is also one of {{noping|Vipul}}'s paid editors and who per previous discussions here at ANI has been under the threat of siteban were he to behave in any way disruptively or malignly. The discussion about this is taking place at AN; please comment there if you so choose: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard#Vipul.27s_paid_editing_enterprise.2C_again]. -- Softlavender (talk) 02:24, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

{{User:ClueBot III/DoNotArchiveUntil|1510972164}}

:I don't believe that's entirely accurate. We can argue about whether covert applies (I can see arguments on both sides) — I would simply have used "off-wiki" but my understanding is the email did not include a request for an unblock, it merely identified a parallel situation regarding another user. Perhaps not a big point, but if the editor actually did not request the unblock we shouldn't state that they did.--S Philbrick(Talk) 20:14, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

:FWIW, I think including a courtesy notice here is an excellent idea as there may be editors who frequent this page but missed the AN discussion; however,I think it should be written more neutrally.--S Philbrick(Talk) 20:18, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

• Not a pile on of hate, but I use the tool where clocked users are faded/italised/struck, and it is showing Riceissa as still blocked. d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 16:13, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

{{atop|(non-admin closure) Workload shifted unto me and other PCR by Black Kite. :) d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 01:36, 6 May 2017 (UTC)}}

The editor User:RazzSazz is a single-purpose account with extremely few edits and who is evidently a conflict-of-interest account. They have been slow-motion edit-warring to violate WP:BLP repeatedly. Primarily, they are adding false citations, reverting to them even after their falsehood has been pointed out. For example, the cites at their edit [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Alia_Janine&diff=prev&oldid=777885166 here] — which they reverted to [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Alia_Janine&diff=778589098&oldid=778588402 here] — do not mention a single word about the educational claims RazzSazz makes. There's also a false citation for their claim of "11 schools", as well as blatant edit-warring to re-insert IMDb refs despite WP:RS/IMDB — with a snarky, uncivil edit-summary [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Alia_Janine&diff=778589301&oldid=778589098 here].

Moreover, the editor refuses to respond to posts on their talk page or to discuss their issues on the article talk page. I've had to remove WP:PROMOTIONAL and WP:PUFFERY, and it's clear this editor is attempting to use Wikipedia for whitewashing and promotional purposes, and not contributing otherwise.

I didn't want to bring them here, but this has been going on since April 29 and shows no sign of letting up. I don't know if a topic ban is in order, but the COI seems pretty blatant. --Tenebrae (talk) 05:27, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

: accidentally archived to 953 without being resolved d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 14:52, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

• {{done}} I've put the article on pending changes (the editor is not confirmed), that should hopefully sort out the BLP issues. If they persist after they are confirmed, let me know. Black Kite (talk) 17:15, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

{{abot}}

{{atop|(non-admin closure) User and sock indeffed. To see the difference between OS and RD, read on. d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 01:39, 6 May 2017 (UTC)}}

Hi everybody! This is the first time I am reporting anything, so I hope I'm doing it correctly. I am currently in dispute with Bulldozer20 over edits to Samsung Galaxy S8, in which the user is repeatedly using personal attacks and breaching edit-warring policy, while I am trying to engage the user to go to the talk page. Edits in particular: [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Samsung_Galaxy_S8&type=revision&diff=778859798&oldid=778840624 1], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Samsung_Galaxy_S8&diff=next&oldid=778861302 2], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Samsung_Galaxy_S8&diff=next&oldid=778862391 3], and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Samsung_Galaxy_S8&diff=next&oldid=778863706 4]. LocalNet (talk) 16:55, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

:I've given them a 31 hour break for those comments. Hopefully they calm down and work constructively, because the next block it's going to be a bit more permanent. RickinBaltimore (talk) 16:58, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

:: Thank you! :) LocalNet (talk) 17:05, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

::: A few minutes after Bulldozer20 was blocked, a brand new account, Clautist, was created and resumed the edit war. I blocked Clautist, and will extend Bulldozer20's block. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 17:27, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

:::: I suspected as much, but didn't want to take action myself. Thank you for taking care of it! :) LocalNet (talk) 17:44, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

:::::Seeing as Bulldozer just told LocalNet to kill themselves on their talk page (not to mention insta-socking after a block) an indef seems more prudent. Capeo (talk) 17:56, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

::::::(ec) I was just coming here to say that I did just that Capeo. I Revdel'd the edits, indeffed the user and restricted TPA. RickinBaltimore (talk) 17:57, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

:::::::They have access to a number of large ranges, so I suspect you will see them again if they're so inclined.--Jezebel's Ponyo^{bons mots} 18:06, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

::::::::Sorry, Rick, I didn't think the insult was revdel worthy or I wouldn't have repeated it. Feel free to remove my comment too if needed. Capeo (talk) 18:15, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

:::::::::Nah, you just reported the insult, not repeating word for word the comment, which is why I Revdel'd it. RickinBaltimore (talk) 18:18, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

{{abot}}

{{atop|(non-admin closure) Revdelled, indeffed, DOLT is being observed. It is illegal to bear lockpicking tools in Vatican City. d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 01:42, 6 May 2017 (UTC)}}

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Nomoskedasticity#Message_from_Jack_McCauley] -- "I will proceed forward with legal action". Page: Jack McCauley. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 18:17, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

• OK, what do we do here? I've rev-delled "Jack McCauley"'s attempted outing of the editor that was making changes to "his" BLP. To be honest, the easiest action would be to indef both of them, but I'm aware that might be harsh on an editor that was only trying to "fix" his own article. Black Kite (talk) 18:25, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
• Well the username alone is grounds for a block, as it could be someone posing as McCauley. This might be one we need to block, then refer to OTRS. RickinBaltimore (talk) 18:43, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
• Thoughts, anyone? I agree with Rick, but any other options would be welcome. Black Kite (talk) 18:53, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
• Not so sure about the username, though it would fit policy to get some verification, I won't be blocking it. I do wonder if there's some funny business going on at the article, and what that may be. The article, in relation to the comments, would be my main concern here. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 19:04, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
• [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ANomoskedasticity&type=revision&diff=778884470&oldid=778878199 User is threating to dox another user]. Indef block is most likely needed. —JJBers 19:07, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
• Was the threat credible? The article doesnt appear to have any real issues other than being overly puffy and containing some dubious claims (inventor of the scrolling mouse feature). Only in death does duty end (talk) 19:09, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
• [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ADavid_in_DC&type=revision&diff=778884843&oldid=778679586 More legal threats]. User is also now blocked. —JJBers 19:10, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
• Oh, goodness, no, the revdel'd edits contain explicit doxxing. We need to be sensitive about the concerns of article subjects, but not to the point of allowing them to harass and threaten our editors like that. Good block. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 19:14, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

{{od}} (ec){{u|Only in death}} That threat to out the user seemed to be very credible, and definitely gave a chilling effect. That, grouped with the next legal threat that {{U|JJBers}} just linked to has led me to indef the user. I did however write a comment on how they can reach out to OTRS, confirm their identity and work with Wikipedia to ensure the article's accuracy. RickinBaltimore (talk) 19:15, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

:No you misunderstood, I meant was the reason for the threat credible? (Per WP:DOLT) Assuming it was Jack McCauley. I just took a look at the revision history and it did seem a legitimate complaint under our sourcing and BLP policies. His family member's names are quite difficult to get hold of online and non-notable minors would be routinely removed as a BLP concern anyway. Likewise his net-worth would not be public (although a minimum could be informally guessed at from the Oculus buyout) Either way it looks like the basis for his complaint was legit. Only in death does duty end (talk) 19:32, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

• Is anyone going to mop out the doxxing via revdel? d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 20:22, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
• :Rev-deleted and Oversight requested. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 20:42, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

:::Thanks. I know this is slightly off topic but I just read REVDEL and OS and am not so sure of the difference between the two. Is OS higher power and means things are totally Gone for Good, whereas revdel just hides stuff from normal users? d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 20:51, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

::::For the most part yes, Oversighting prevents even admins from seeing the material in question, whereas a revdel can still be seen by admins. It's designed to limit the users that can see defamatory information to a bare minimum. RickinBaltimore (talk) 20:54, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

:::::Sort of like how the Vatican keeps the really good porn under lock and key so as not to endanger the faith and virtue of the flock. Revdel means you have to be ordained to see it; oversight puts it out of reach of all but cardinals and His Holiness. EEng 22:17, 5 May 2017 (UTC){{Original research inline|date=May 2017}} {{Citation needed}}

:::::: Ill deal with you in an hour d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 22:27, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

:::::::{{u|EEng}} Dealt with :) d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 23:48, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

{{abot}}

I don't know if this is the right place, or even if these are really personal attacks, but I am not happy with them, so I'd like to ask for outside input on how to deal with this, if at all. {{User|112.211.214.39}}, who seems to be the same editor as {{User|Deisenbe}}, although I stress the word "seems", first wrote [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Judaism_and_sexuality&diff=776507862&oldid=776507207 this], which is still arguably okay, and then [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Judaism_and_sexuality&diff=777834292&oldid=777714712 this], which I think is not okay any more. In the first edit he seems to claim rabbis don't know their stuff, while in the second edit he seems to make generalizations about rabbis and for unclear reasons makes incorrect assumptions about the ability of rabbis to edit Wikipedia. Are these edits okay or are they personal attacks? What, if anything, should I do about them? Debresser (talk) 17:53, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

:I am not that anonymous editor and have no idea who he is. What SPECIFIC TO ME are you objecting to?deisenbe (talk) 18:17, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

:: Read what I wrote above regarding the second edit. Debresser (talk) 18:25, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

:::I agree that [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Judaism_and_sexuality&diff=prev&oldid=777834292 this edit] was inappropriate, in at least two ways. I have closed the discussion and asked Deisenbe not to do it again. John (talk) 18:27, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

:::There needs to be zero tolerance for that kind of attack. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 18:46, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

::::It was a mild aspersion, not a blatant personal attack. John's post on Deisenbe's talk page struck the right notes. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 23:35, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

• {{nacc}} Technically, those comments are not personal attacks, as they are addressing article content issues. The fact that they place those content issues at the feet of a particular user and are written in a manner that appears to address one user in an overly hostile manner on an article talk page means that they are at least uncivil, but (assuming Debresser actually is engaged in the kind of problematic editing mentioned in the linked diffs) they still do not rise to the level of personal attacks. And when one isn't sure whether something is meant as a personal attack or not (as the OP certainly appears not to be), the first stop should not be ANI. Debresser's first step should have been to reflect on whether there is merit to claims like {{tq|you constantly look at written sources from long ago, and all but ignore what is going on today}} and {{tq|Your claim that I should not have restored Catholicism because of talk page discussion is self-serving. The opposition is from you and only you. No one on the talk page supports you. You're the one being disruptive.}} and then, if one determines that they are indeed unjustified ad hominem remarks, request that they retract them. Debresser's first and only edit to Deisenbel's talk page before notifying them of this ANI discussion was [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Deisenbe&diff=639594372&oldid=638809694 more than two years ago]. I don't see any need for admin action here, especially now that John has [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ADeisenbe&type=revision&diff=777854930&oldid=777851115 already] done Debresser's job and asked Deisenbe to focus on content. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 01:08, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

:: I did check myself to see if the accusations were correct, which they were not. Both of them. Remains only what you call incivility, and I called it in the header of this thread "borderline personal attack". I came here to ask for other editors' opinions, not asking for sanctions, and that has been clear to all here, so I think the claim that WP:ANI should not have been my first stop is not justified. Debresser (talk) 12:02, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

Continued exhibition of prejudice not acceptable on Wikipedia: Deisenbe opened a thread about the underlying content issue at WP:DRN. In that thread he again emphasizes the fact that I am a rabbi, and shows unacceptable prejudice against religious Jews. Please review the text, and decide for yourself. Debresser (talk) 17:13, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

:I find it perplexing that a user with multiple religious affiliation userboxes, including self-identification as a rabbi, complains when another editor says, "they are a rabbi." If you do not want your religious affiliation and position to be part of your wiki-identity, you could leave those off. If you do want them to be part of you wiki-identity, then I would expect other editors to interpret your postings in light of that self-identification. I see nothing in Deisenbe's posts referred to that say something like: "Rabbi's opinions are invalid because they are a rabbi." They are, rather, complaining more that "Rabbi thinks other opinions about Judaism are invalid because they do not match Rabbi's teachings." I don't think Deisenbe has substantiated that position, but unless I messed something, that is not the same as saying Deisenbe has made unacceptable religious-prejudice PAs. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 18:04, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

:: I have no problem with everybody knowing I am a rabbi. I do have a problem with an editor who says that because I am a rabbi, therefore I am not open to discussion, and implying basically in almost as many words that I can not be a good editor on Wikipedia because I am a rabbi. Because that is how I interpret "[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard&diff=778171839&oldid=778160487 Its position, and his, is that Judaism is totally defined by texts from centuries ago. What Jews do or think about Judaism in the twentieth and twenty-first centuries is to him irrelevant. He is totally inflexible and will not compromise on anything.]". Not to mention that this statement shows him to be rather ignorant of Judaism and its teachings. Debresser (talk) 19:16, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

:::Their comment was a violation of the widely-ignored principle, "play the ball not the man" (which is not to say that it violated WP:NPA). ―Mandruss ☎ 19:29, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

::::{{reply|Debresser}}, thank you for the clarification. I would say you are partially justified in your interpretation but the end result is still in line with Mandruss's statement. That is, interpreting those statements as ".. because I am a rabbi, therefore I am not open to discussion.." is reasonable. It is, I feel obliged to say, slightly bizarre to anyone who knows anything about the tradition of Talmudic debate that Deisenbe seems to imply a rabbi is not open to discussion. That said, I don't think the interpretation of "...implying...that I can not be a good editor..." is justified by Deisenbe's statements, especially in the light of AGF. Not that my non-admin opinion has any intrinsic worth or influence. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 19:54, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

::::: I am willing to allow for the notion, that I may be exaggerating. That is precisely why I came here, to ask for input, as can be seen from the careful header of this section. At the same time, I do think that Deisenbe's edits over the years, which I quoted below, make the case for a prejudiced editor with possibly a personal ax to grind with Orthodox Judaism. Debresser (talk) 19:59, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

::::::I commend your care and I believe my answer above addresses that specific concern. I see another issue here of good faith, though. That is one of making assumptions about another editor's beliefs. Beliefs about beliefs, as it were. Deisenbe apparently believes that you believe secular Jews are not Jews at all. You apparently believe Deisenbe believes Haredi Jews are not qualified to edit on religious edits due to a minority and restrictive viewpoint. Both of these positions (assuming my beliefs about both beliefs about the corresponding beliefs (whew!) are correct) are not assuming good faith and should be abandoned. If that makes any sense at all outside my head. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 21:40, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

:::::::I differ with that interpretation of AGF. Good faith goes to one's honesty and integrity, full stop. ―Mandruss ☎ 21:46, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

: I do not believe I have a prejudice against "religious Jews", whatever that means. Religious Jews are welcome to write whatever they want about their religious beliefs or practices. What I object to is Debresser's intolerance of any other variety of Judaism. deisenbe (talk) 18:22, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

:: Well, if your assumption that I am intolerant is based on the claim that I don't consider non-Orthodox Jews - Jews, then I simply have no idea where you dug up so much horseshit. You seem to know less about Judaism than you think I do about Christianity. :) Debresser (talk) 21:45, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

He continues with completely off-limits questions on my talkpage, asking me to clarify my religious points of view.[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ADebresser&type=revision&diff=778202332&oldid=778188762] Debresser (talk) 19:13, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

I would like to point out that there were four earlier discussion on that same Talk:Judaism and sexuality talkpage in which Deisenbe disagreed with me, from 2014, 2015, 2015 again, and one more in 2015, and then too Deisenbe tried to play the "you are a Haredi Jew and rabbi and have a rigid POV" card.[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Judaism_and_sexuality&diff=633270577&oldid=624452981][https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Judaism_and_sexuality&diff=672261713&oldid=672261354] The second diff is especially informative. This editor seems to have a clear allergy against Orthodox Jews, but he shouldn't play that card to try and get his way on Wikipedia. Especially telling is his post "[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Judaism_and_sexuality&diff=685365367&oldid=685243888 This article is about Judaism and sexuality. But what is Judaism?]", which reads more like his personal credo than as a serious discussion. In short, this editor, and this editor alone is trying to push his personal conceptions and points of view, and is apparently frustrated that I disagree with him. Debresser (talk) 19:33, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

• Recommend stern warning: The diffs in the OP strike me as pretty typical "pushing the envelope" that people tend to do online when approaching a sensitive topic; rather than going full bore with the first post they tend to begin by vaguely mentioning the topic they want to address, and if nobody picks up on it, mention it again in a more focused manner. In normal situations this is a good thing, and indicative that an editor is sensibly attempting to avoid derailing the discussion by triggering controversy. Here, it is not, because it indicates the poster was seeking to make an issue of Debresser's status as a Rabbi to impugn, improperly, Debresser's opinions as biased or clouded by his POV. While there are some circumstances where it might be appropriate to suggest another editor check his or her POV based on his or her qualifications (this happens a lot in the ALTMED arena, though often in far too aggressive a manner), I believe it is highly inappropriate here because any reasonable editor should know that bringing up another editor's identification or life experiences as a Jew in arguing against that editor's participation anywhere is all but certain to trigger controversy, destabilize discussion, and bring the encyclopedia into disrepute. Honestly, from the "pushing the envelope" I discuss above, I believe it's fair to infer that the editor had actual knowledge that bringing up Debresser's identity bore a high risk of destabilizing the discussion. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, and the editorial process requires collegial interaction in order to resolve disputes. Arguments directed towards an editor's person are generally not helpful, even where another editor might have brought up his or her qualifications or identity first. Editors must strive to resolve disputes on the merits, and avoid conduct that is likely to seriously interfere with another editor's ability or willingness to participate on Wikipedia. Arguing about another editor's Jewish identity as pertaining to his or her ability to constructively contribute to an article, even an article about Judaism, is inappropriate. I believe Deisenbe should be given a stern warning, perhaps a final warning, with it noted that repetition should result in a topic ban or siteban.

  I believe this is the proper outcome even if we assume the anonymous editor is not Deisenbe, because [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Judaism_and_sexuality&diff=777834292 Deisenbe's comment here], which specifically argues about Debresser's identity as a Haredi Rabbi as interfering with his ability to participate in the discussion, is itself unacceptable within the framework I discuss. Any reasonable editor should know better than to make this sort of argument because of the extremely high risk of destabilizing and derailing discussion. This is precisely why we have WP:NPA: Personal attacks, even if made alongside meritorious arguments, run an unacceptably high risk of derailing discussions and alienating editors. The same is true about arguments targeting an editor's personal identity. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 21:12, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

Please see [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AJudaism_and_sexuality&type=revision&diff=778230071&oldid=778229328 this edit]. Saying "Since you self-identify as a rabbi, this does not appear to be a good faith mistake". Same talkpage, same issue, same pattern of hasty reverts that are not justified by policy. Debresser (talk) 21:16, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

:{{nao}} I don't see anything uncivil about that edit. An isolated and explained departure from AGF is nothing out of the ordinary. ANI also isn't the place to complain about each and every "borderline personal attack" that comes one's way. {{not watching}} --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 21:36, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

:: On the same page and about the same issue. That is not a departure from good faith. That is another editor catching on the prejudice of the previous editor. Which is precisely the reason prejudice should be fought from the very beginning. Debresser (talk) 21:41, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

:::At this point I would suggest WP:BOOMERANG for accusing editors of personal attacks when the comments are about content - since User:Debresser claims subject matter expertise, his use of a single cherry-picked quotation to insert his extraordinary POV claim without adequate sourcing appears to be outside the bounds of good faith. My comment was intended to be a civil warning about what this may look like to others. It is not acceptable to promote your own religious POV by inserting indequately sourced WP:SYNTH. We have asked him to provide additional balancing sources, and this is the second time he has responded by filing a AN/I complaint. Seraphim System ^(talk) 21:46, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

:::: That is one suspicious usage of the word "we"...

:::: I refuted the WP:SYNTH argument on the talkpage. Please don't turn this into a content dispute.

:::: The statement is not POV, and nobody has suggested it is. Not till now at least. May I also remind you that the statement was in the article for a long time (since the very creation of this article in 2010!) without any opposition at all, even before I added a source to it.

:::: I added a source to a statement that was previously unsourced. I disagreed with you on the talkpage that the source is not good enough. Especially since one of your arguments against that source is that it is written by a rabbi! At the same time, that too is a content issue, and if you would find consensus for that opinion on the talkpage, then I'll try and find a better source. Debresser (talk) 21:49, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

:::::You are the one bringing content disputes to AN. Rabbis are not experts in Christian theology, but besides that the source is being misrepresented to insert POV. You are incorrect in your assumption that all forms of Christianity share the same view about sex and original sin - Quakers are one example. I was only trying to politely bring your own bias to your attention.Seraphim System ^(talk) 22:00, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

:::::: That is another incorrect statement from you. I did not bring any content dispute here, just the behavioral one.

:::::: I also did not say that "all forms of Christianity share the same view about sex and original sin". I said that it is true for Christianity in general. As it is. With notable exceptions (you mentioned Quakers), which surely fall outside the scope of that article per WP:UNDUE. Debresser (talk) 22:06, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

::::::: Yes you actually did say that //en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Judaism_and_sexuality&diff=776975463&oldid=776690391 - not to mention you keep restoring a section that is WP:SYNTH and fails verification based on the quote provided. As other editors have pointed out, most likely Rabbi Gold's quote is about the development of doctrine in a particular context, which you have left out. As a subject matter expert, you should be more sensitive to most to the fact that religious doctrines have at times diverged, split into new sects. You can not just say something is true for {{tq|basically all of Judaism and all of Christianity}} - again you need a source for this, if you are using it as a reason for inclusion, which you are. You can not just ask all editors to simply accept your subject matter expertise. Maybe this is a good faith mistake, because sometimes subject matter experts can be too reliant on their own expertise on an issue. But we could have had this discussion on talk, instead of here at AN. What I said certainly wasn't meant as a personal attack, and I don't really think an AN complaint was necessary to resolve this.Seraphim System ^(talk) 22:30, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

::::::: Also I am sorry if you felt this was a personal attack or thought I was unwilling to discuss this with you, I absolutely value input from editors with different POV and sources with different POV. What I think is a problem is that you feel it is a "personal attack" when editors try to point out how your POV may be influencing your analysis and that you can't see the point other editors are trying to make about the current wording of the section, and that you don't see the problem with representing the opinion of a single scholar as a fact about "all of Judaism and all of Christianity" Seraphim System ^(talk) 23:03, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

:::::::: I indeed maintain that I do not have a POV on this, and that my opinion is the opinion of experts in this area. Which is why I added a source, to show I am right. Just now I added another 3, all stating clearly the same thing. You and Deisenbe have not shown a single source apart from a medieval Christian primary source which is limited to Catholicism alone. So who is the one who is looking only towards ancient sources, and not willing to be flexible? The fucking chutzpe of the two of you to accuse me of your own faults! And to use the fact that I am an Orthodox Jew as an argument against me, where the intellectual integrity of rabbinic Judaism stands opposed to the oppressive and dogmatic practices of the Christian Church! Now you really got me mad. Anyway, editors here will judge the behavioral issues with more detachment than I. Debresser (talk) 11:33, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

• I agree that this wasn't a personal attack. I do think, however, it could have been better phrased in light of the above complaints. In part it reads to me like the fairly standard argument that another editor's conduct has pushed good faith to the limits. Most of us do this, and though it's probably not very productive when we do, it's not a personal attack. Moreover, the reference to Debresser's status as a Rabbi does not render it a personal attack given the context. The intent clearly was to say in light of the education and knowledge Rabbis possess, it stretches good faith to assume that Debresser fully agrees with the implications of the claim Seraphim System asserts to be incorrect. But, as I said, I think it could have been phrased differently, or better yet, simply left alone. As I say above, every reasonable editor should know better than to level criticism at another editor on grounds including or resembling protected class characteristics. But in this case, I think it's qualitatively different than the statements made in the section above. I also believe Debresser might have done better to ask for redaction before coming here. Rarely is an ANI thread or subthread started within minutes of an incident productive, and they often could have been resolved by discussion. I admit this is difficult to ask of an editor who believes he or she has been maligned on account of his religion, but I think that goes to whether a BOOMERANG should lie, which it should not. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 23:32, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

Comment: In this case the content drew scrutiny of the man, not the man of the content. If the OP wishes to avoid having their partiality scrutinized, maybe they shouldn't be trying to paint a wide wall with a narrow brush. Open up a bit, take in the concerns of others and work through it. Don't just file all criticism as intolerance to ones racial, sexual or religious status. Maybe, just maybe, an expert on old sources is not the Go To for modern disposition. 62.255.118.6 (talk) 13:43, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

He is also edit warring about this, the discussion on the talkpage and this thread notwithstanding.[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Judaism_and_sexuality&diff=778239908&oldid=778229730][https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Judaism_and_sexuality&diff=778352962&oldid=778316303] Debresser (talk) 17:03, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

:At this point I think WP:BOOMERANG is necessary to prevent further disruption from User:Debresser bringing content disputes to AN/I or at least a warning that further frivolous complaints will result in a block. Seraphim System ^(talk) 17:12, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

:: Why? Aren't you edit warring? You did it again, making a 4th revert in 24 hours, violating WP:3RR.[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Judaism_and_sexuality&diff=778361906&oldid=778360137] In view of his neglect of the ongoing discussion and this threat, I propose an immediate block. Debresser (talk) 17:34, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

:::::I removed citations without removing content here [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Judaism_and_sexuality&diff=778352962&oldid=778316303][//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Judaism_and_sexuality&diff=778353564&oldid=778353205], and I edited to better reflect the quote provided, which is about medieval Christian writers, and also corrected his typos [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Judaism_and_sexuality&diff=778353205&oldid=778352962] , and added a quote from a 13th c. Rabbi [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Judaism_and_sexuality&diff=778355989&oldid=778353564]. I don't think this is edit warring. I felt in this case I provided edit summaries that were detailed enough that it was not necessary to repeat them on the talk page. I made some changes incrementally to provide policy justifications for each one that could be discussed on talk - editing to improve an article should not be construed as edit warring where an editor is acting in good faith. These were normal edits (removing unnecessary stacked citations without removing content, fixing typos, and improving content that was restored without removing it) Debresser has reverted without giving any reason 4 times. I count 3 reverts on my part, and 4 from Debresser, noting that he even restored the original typos instead of constructively editing and accused me of "removing" information where I had simply added more information from the source instead of reverting his edit [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Judaism_and_sexuality&diff=778361906&oldid=778360137] [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Judaism_and_sexuality&diff=778357882&oldid=778355989] [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Judaism_and_sexuality&diff=778229730&oldid=778229006] [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Judaism_and_sexuality&diff=778307336&oldid=778239908] Seraphim System ^(talk) 18:08, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

::::::Debresser, you've broken 3RR as Seraphim documents above. Seraphim, you've also broken 3RR: [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Judaism_and_sexuality&diff=778229006 first revert] (appears to be a partial revert falling within 3RR), [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Judaism_and_sexuality&diff=778239908 second revert], [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Judaism_and_sexuality&diff=778360137 third revert] (a partial revert made [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Judaism_and_sexuality&type=revision&diff=778355989&oldid=778316303 part of several consecutive edits]), [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Judaism_and_sexuality&diff=778360137 fourth revert]. Page protection may be appropriate here. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 18:25, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

:::::::{{re|Mendaliv}} The first diff was, I think, my first edit to the page - how is that a revert? As Debresser said that had been there since 2010 - we don't usually count that as a revert (at least I was told by admins in AE that this kind of removal does not count as a revert ie. If I remove content from a page, and it is restored, this is not a violation of the consensus clause because my first removal is not be counted as a revert) - Are you sure you linked to the right diff? Seraphim System ^(talk) 18:37, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

::::::: Yes, I just noticed, that after his 4th revert, I also reverted. In any case, undoing both 4th reverts would bring us back to the same version we presently have, so apart from apologizing and saying I hadn't noticed it, there's not much I can do. Frankly I am taken aback a bit by this editor, who edit wars in disregard of ongoing discussion both on the talkpage and here. Debresser (talk) 18:33, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

::::: {{ec}}As you correctly say, you removed a reference with the edit summary "WP:UNDUE again this is only one persons opinion".[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Judaism_and_sexuality&diff=778352962&oldid=778316303] What does WP:UNDUE have to do with one reference out of four? That was an unjustified edit if ever I saw one. I don't even begin to understand the reasoning behind it without assuming bad faith.

::::: Then again you admit you removed a reference with the edit summary "the article doesn't provide author's name or sources for that statement".[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Judaism_and_sexuality&diff=778353564&oldid=778353205] So what of it that the article's author isn't indicated? So what of it if the article doesn't indicate a source. The article itself is the source. Another unjustified edit par excellence.

::::: The worst thing is that you make all these incredible edits while there is a talkpage discussion and a WP:ANI thread open. Have you no fear? Debresser (talk) 18:31, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

• I also would not count Seraphim's first edit (22:06 May 1) as a revert, that material had been there for a long time. The other three (23:16, the four between 17:23 and 17:47 today, and 18:19) clearly are. Debresser has reverted four times (22:11 yesterday, 10:48, 18:01, 18:32). Debresser, I would strongly suggest you self-revert the last of your edits. Black Kite (talk) 18:41, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

:: That edit removed content that was removed in the preceding weeks by others, see [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Judaism_and_sexuality&diff=776309165&oldid=756881590 this edit] and the many other edits to that paragraph in the preceding two weeks, and Seraphim System was aware of that, as his previous involvement on this article and his involvement on the talkpage prove. So it definitely counts as a revert, the first of his four. Black Kite, please be more careful before you make strong recommendations. Debresser (talk) 18:47, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

:: In addition, as I already argued above, how else can I protect an article from an editor making edits ignoring the talkpage discussion? Not that I did this on purpose, I made an honest mistake, and I maintain he was the first to violate 3RR and reverting both edits now would no change anything, but still, the fact that I am dealing with an editor who makes unjustified edits while ignoring the discussion and warning on his talkpage and here, has to work in his disadvantage and my favor. Debresser (talk) 18:51, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

::: Umm...no I wasn't. I had never even seen that article before you posted your ANI report last night. I saw the POV template, and saw that on the talk page others had taken issue with balance problems and tried to address that particular issue, at which point you it turned into a WP:BATTLEGROUND with repeated reversions without any policy justifications given. Above you say {{tq|So what of it that the article's author isn't indicated? So what of it if the article doesn't indicate a source. The article itself is the source.}} WP:RS provides a lot of suggestions for how to evaluate secondary and tertiary sources (or maybe it is primary? - the point is an article that does not provide sources is not a secondary source) - Any decisions I made were entirely based on Wikipedia's core policies. Per WP:ONUS the burden to justify inclusion is on you. I don't think the fact that you have had problems with other editors on this page should be construed as reflecting favorably on your conduct here. That said I know very little about prior conflict on the page besides what was discussed last night here at AN (and that only generally, please do not take this to mean I dug up every diff that could possibly be relevant - if I am required to engage in article archaeology before making good faith edits, please let me know and I will be sure to do this from now on.) Seraphim System ^(talk) 19:31, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

I came here only for the behavioral issues: mention of the fact that I am a rabbi in a disparaging way and edit warring. The statement in question has been in the article since 2010 and now has 4 good sources, and all objections I have shown that they are not even a matter of opinion, but simply incorrect according to Wikipedia policies and guidelines. If Seraphim System can refrain from removing things till such time as he can show a clear consensus based on arguments that actually make sense, and he and Deisenbe can acknowledge that their disparaging mentions of rabbis (both me and the rabbi who was quoted in one of the sources) are not in accordance with the spirit of Wikipedia, then we can consider closing this thread. Debresser (talk) 21:55, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

Note: In the mean time Seraphim System was blocked for the period of a week as a suspected sock.[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Seraphim_System&diff=778572229&oldid=778561290][https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Seraphim_System&diff=778611925&oldid=778607519] Debresser (talk) 05:41, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

{{Clear}}

{{atop|(non-admin closure) Indeffed as sock. d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 17:19, 6 May 2017 (UTC)}}

An IP editor claiming to be James McNally is edit-warring to blank to page James McNally (musician), claiming that it is incorrect. There are at least some references on the page - although much on this BLP does not appear to be sourced.Nigel Ish (talk) 13:03, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

:I trimmed down the unsourced content and gave the article a shot at expansion, but to be honest I'm not convinced he's notable independently of his projects (The Pogues and Afro Celt Sound System). Sam Walton (talk) 13:33, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

This conversation was just blanked by {{vandal|D'SuperHeroo}}, their only edit so far. Could be worth keeping an eye on this account. — Richard BB 13:55, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

:An indeff and notification of OTRS? I doubt that the IP and SuperHeroo are really James, a) really juvenile username unbecoming of a professional musician. b) no legal threats. While this is ABF and a possible violation of NPA, the immaturity of the IP and account seem to point more at a fanboy than the actual BLP subject. d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 13:57, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

:Sock of Nsmutte, should be blocked immediately. —JJBers 14:00, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

{{abot}}

{{Clear}}

{{atop|(non-admin closure) Page renamed. Other situation dealt with. —JJBers 05:28, 6 May 2017 (UTC)}}

{{cot|This is what you're supposed to do. There is no way on earth this could be construed as canvassing. ‑ Iridescent 00:04, 6 May 2017 (UTC)}}

Using WP:AWB, this user canvassed on an extreme number of wikiprojects([https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions/Primefac&offset=20170505230737&target=Primefac contribs];[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Australian_basketball&diff=prev&oldid=778913840 example]). This contributes towards canvassing as WP:VOTESTACKING of people interested in sports; as well as mass posting.

The RFC is linked at WP:CENT to assure partipiciation, and was deliberately not linked to wikiprojects to avoid canvassing/local consensus. Sufficient warnings were ignored and removed:[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Global_consensus_check:Sports_notability_guideline&diff=next&oldid=778910500]. This should be resolved as soon as possible.Burning Pillar (talk) 23:31, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

:{{u|Burning Pillar}} How does one canvas using AWB exactly? CHRISSYMAD ❯❯❯¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 23:37, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

:Somehow I think notifying 110 WikiProjects moves past canvassing and onto "has no life". {{;)}} More seriously, no, this was not canvassing. It is entirely appropriate to post a neutrally worded message to wikiprojects associated with sports when a RFC is started on the subject of sport. "Limited posting" of a "neutral" message in a "nonpartisan" way "open"ly is specifically allowed. "Votestacking is an attempt to sway consensus by selectively notifying editors who have or are thought to have a predetermined point of view or opinion". Being a member of a WikiProject in sports does not mean they all hold the same view on the existing notability guideline. Your "warnings" on the other hand was totally inappropriate. -- KTC (talk) 23:41, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

: Piling on - this is not what canvassing is. I have to also question the motivation behind filing an RfC where the default position is "repeal all the guidelines" and keeping it as secret as possible. — foxj 23:43, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

:Note: AfDs are also usually announced on relevant Wikiprojects and sorting lists, which is considered good practice as well. — PaleoNeonate — 23:48, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

: Notifying relevant Wikiprojects with a neutral message about a relevant RfC is a Good Thing and should encouraged to ensure maximum participation from knowledgeable editors, it is not canvassing. Normally there wont be 110 relevant WikiProjects but this is a very wide ranging RfC and sport is a very popular topic, so in this case there really are that many. I would also like to know the answer to foxj's question. Thryduulf (talk) 23:51, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

::{{edit conflict}}Users active in local sports wikiprojects have a higher chance to feel strongly about a sport than the general community. This means that if you notify them, the RFC will probably be disturbed by their WP:BIAS. And this is prohibited as votestacking per WP:CANVASS.

::Posting something on WP:CENT is the direct opposite of keeping something secret. I also wonder why you think that the default position is "repeal all the guidelines"; I don't think it is.Burning Pillar (talk) 23:51, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

:::This isn't canvasing. --Tarage (talk) 23:58, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

:::"who have or are thought to have a predetermined point of view or opinion". Are you really suggesting that the members of the those WikiProjects all hold the same opinion on those guidelines? -- KTC (talk) 00:01, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

• Can we have a SNOW close on this, please? B.P., you're simply unfamiliar with how things are done around here. You need to trust the word of more experienced editors. EEng 23:59, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

• Our policies must sure be ocnfusing if all the stuff at the top of [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Global_consensus_check:Sports_notability_guideline&oldid=778910500 this] appears the proper way to do something. d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 00:09, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

::Well it certainly seems to have ocnfused the hell out of you, {{u|L3X1}}. EEng 00:48, 6 May 2017 (UTC) {{Citation needed}}

:::Again? d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 00:52, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

{{cob}}

• Sorry to restart this, but would someone a little bolder than me fix the title of the RfC which is

::Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Global consensus check:Sports notability guideline

:How about just:

::Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Sports notability guideline

:Johnuniq (talk) 00:45, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

::Thats a good idea, this is only the en.wiki anyway. d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 00:50, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

:::I guess I'm bold enough to do it. [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3ARequests_for_comment%2FSports_notability_guideline&type=revision&diff=778927366&oldid=778925599 Done]. SkyWarrior 00:54, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

::::Danke. d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 00:55, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

{{abot}}

{{Clear}}

{{atop|(non-admin closure) Sock blocked indefinitely. —JJBers 05:26, 6 May 2017 (UTC) Modified from {{u|L3X1}}}}

AIV backlog, and User:Globox Barbara Rayman Teensy is a very DUCKy sock of the indeffed User:Slime 123 Globox Barbara Rayman. I requested CU, but it can be passed for duck. Its pretty obvious. And I'm not notifying them. d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 01:03, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

:I think this could just be block evasion, I mean they were just blocked tonight. —JJBers 01:08, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

::Agree. They're also not to bright in the evasion dept. but FRIJOLES. d.g. L3X1 (distant write)

:::{{duck}} -- There'sNoTime ^{(to explain)} 01:12, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

::::Thanks, and your ES there is awesome! SPI closed. d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 01:16, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

:::::Off topic: The user seems to like slime a lot. —JJBers 01:19, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

::::::I finally downshifted my brain, and just now realised how similar their names are. It wasn't until I reported it that i noticed the Globox, and it was just now i realised that 75% is common. d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 01:23, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

{{abot}}

{{atop|(non-admin closure) User blocked, done. —JJBers 13:44, 6 May 2017 (UTC)}}

The question relating to Judaism and usury by Tileionic231 has all the hallmarks of the Nazi troll. If confirmed, please delete and block? Eliyohub (talk) 13:10, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

• {{done}} Deleted and blocked. Pretty obvious. Black Kite (talk) 13:17, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

{{abot}}

{{archive top|result=Sock claim misses the fact he was unblocked and allowed to edit. Admin do not dictate article content, editors do, and it is already at WP:AFD. Nothing here that requires admin intervention. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 13:19, 6 May 2017 (UTC)}}

First of all, this user made a page which holds no significance as well he claims to keep the page as it has "known star cast" which is somehow seems promotional. And Admins i also keep this fact, this user is a de-facto sock of User:Gantlet. Another thing i would like to remind "admins" we are not kind of promotional site as per WP:NOT policy. {{U|Bearian}} even said as per WP:HAMMER this article must be deleted. If this WP:NOT policy is not sufficient and sock will defend (actually promote) articles, what will be the verdict? SuperHero ● 👊 ● ★ 13:04, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

:Unnotable article; yes. Old sock that was allowed to edit again; fine. Defending a article; I really don't think so. Promotional; if you really think 2 sentences is promotion, that pretty odd. Unless it's that type where just the{{En dash}}{{En dash}}Wait, the movie itself doesn't exist.
This user is fine, the the article should be deleted, but that should be it. —JJBers 13:14, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

{{archive bottom}}

{{Clear}}

{{atop|(non-admin closure) {{stale}} Declined by Widr. d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 00:41, 7 May 2017 (UTC) }}

This guy keep on removing the nationality of the player in the topic sentence, defy consensus of Footy project. He even requested the same treatment as Diego Costa (...is a footballer who plays for XYZ club and ABC national team) but defy the suggestion himself. I am not sure why in Wikipedia:Administrator intervention against vandalism, no comment for the request and just removed by [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrator_intervention_against_vandalism&diff=next&oldid=778838897 Ronhjones] Matthew_hk tc 14:36, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

• Re-reported. d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 00:38, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

{{abot}}

{{User|Roman Spinner}} was banned from editing dab pages in February 2016. They are currently involved in a messy repeated AfD for a dab page, in the course of which they [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ivan_Saric&type=revision&diff=776860175&oldid=776801242 substantially altered] the content of the page while nominating it (for the 2nd time) for AfD.

Perhaps their ban on editing dab pages should be extended to a ban on nominating dab pages for any sort of deletion (CSD, PROD, AfD), to keep them away from this area of editing in which they seem to cause problems for the encyclopedia. Failing that, they need to be reminded that editing a dab page is editing a dab page, even if the same edit nominates it for AfD. PamD 09:32, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

• Blatant breach of ban, so I have blocked for 48 hours (although I don't think adding an AFD header as part of the nomination process should be considered on its own as enough to break the ban on 'editing'). I support extending the ban to nominating for deletion too. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 09:49, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

::Maybe he could look at archiving that massive talkpage when the block expires. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 12:12, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

::For clarification, as Roman Spinner seems unclear about it too, the [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ivan_Saric&type=revision&diff=776860175&oldid=776801242 diff] I cited in the initial post was not just adding an AfD header: he made substantial changes to the dab page in the same edit. PamD 16:40, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

::::Roman has now explained below that the substantial edit was accidental. It illustrates the importance of checking the effect of any edit, including those which are automated or shortcuts. PamD 12:41, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

I suggest an amendment to the original ban. I believe it left him able to edit on disambiguation talk pages. This has led to many move discussions, and I think the ban should included deletion discussions and talk pages. One example of my concern is Katharine Blake which Roman nominated for speedy deletion three times [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Katharine_Blake&action=history] (it is a redirect to a dab), and created move discussions (see Talk:Catherine Blake and Talk:Catherine Blake (disambiguation), keeping on and on despite lack of support. Roman just doesn't seem to be able to stop himself. Best wishes, Boleyn (talk) 14:05, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

:Well at that point you might as well make it a topic ban from all DAB pages/discussions. Very little wriggle-room there. Only in death does duty end (talk) 14:08, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

::I agree, perhaps explicitly covering redirects to dabs too. Boleyn (talk) 14:57, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

• I'd support extending this ban to "Wikipedia disambiguation, broadly construed". That ought to clearly cover the relevant areas being disrupted: if it has to do with disambiguation, it's off-limits. The problem seems at the core to be WP:IDHT: when told explicitly that what they're doing is wrong, Roman Spinner ignores the advice and does the wrong thing anyway, often repeatedly. Immediately [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Ivan_Saric_(2nd_nomination)&oldid=776860829 renominating] Ivan Saric for deletion after being [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Ivan_Saric&diff=776801241&oldid=776788420 told] that AFD is the wrong venue to propose a merge is just the latest example of this years-long pattern. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 16:07, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

:{{U|Boleyn}}, i believe you misremember the result; the linked discussion, while the initial proposal was not specific about talk pages, modified the proposal to explicitly include them, which Katie's close clearly states. That minor point aside, however, i would fully support the proposal above, to ban Roman from disambiguation altogether. Some of his work is useful, but the continued wrong actions, even after being shown they are wrong, is not helpful at all, and the project should be protected from them. Happy days, Lindsay^Hello 11:38, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

::{{U|LindsayH}}, I appreciate your kind characterization at the start of the sentence, "Some of his work is useful", however the remainder of the sentence, "but the continued wrong actions, even after being shown they are wrong, is not helpful at all, and the project should be protected from them", leaves me puzzled. Other than this unfortunate sole exception over the entire course of the year and two months from the time the dab page topic ban was imposed, what are those "continued wrong actions" that threaten Wikipedia's integrity and where/how has it been "shown that they are wrong"? —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 12:02, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

• Comment from OP: given Roman's replies and explanation of the accidental nature of his substantial edit to a dab page, I'd be happy to see this dicussion closed now with no further action - but other editors {{ping|Boleyn}} {{ping|Ivanvector}} {{ping|Boing! said Zebedee}} {{ping|LindsayH}}might wish to continue. PamD 14:05, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

:*Yes, I'm happy to close this now - after the comments below, I agree there's no further action needed. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 14:12, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

::*Yes, that's fine by me. To my mind, a ban from editing disambiguation pages includes a restriction from discussion processes which affect their content, such as suggesting that two dab pages be merged, but if that is not the intent behind the topic ban (I have not read that discussion in great detail) then no further sanction is required. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 14:43, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

::Personally I disagree, {{u|PamD}}, {{u|Ivanvector}}, {{u|Boing! said Zebedee}}, {{u|LindsayH}}. The original ban stated: Consensus is clear: Roman Spinner is banned from editing disambiguation pages and their associated talk pages (closed by {{u|KrakatoaKatie}}. This includes creating new dab pages. Although no alternative mechanism to allow RS to propose changes to dab pages was discussed, I suggest that Roman Spinner create a sandbox for that purpose if he so desires. Roman has continually broken this ANI by editing their 'associated talk pages', more than a dozen times in the last month. This is not a one-off infraction of the last ANI. I suggest if Roman sees something of concern, he picks an editor to drop a line to and ask to look at it. This is a persistent violation of the original ANI - I propose simply that he is made to keep to the original decision of the original ANI. Boleyn (talk) 16:48, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

After seeing the proposed draconian editing sanctions mentioned above, I must at least remind all participants in this discussion that, in the one year and two months that my topic ban has lasted, this is the first and only dab which I have edited. Thus, even the section header, "Roman Spinner editing dab pages in breach of ban", may be modified to "…has edited one page…"

Since it wasn't mentioned in the above discussion, I should also indicate, for the record, that the topic ban was solely related to length of dab page entries and did not involve any interaction infractions such as incivility, harassment, edit warring, etc. In fact, during the 11 years and 3 months that I have edited Wikipedia on a nearly-daily basis, the February 2016 ANI and the related one above, are the only instances that I been taken to ANI. Also, the 48-hour ban that has just ended is the first and only time that I have been banned.

The regrettable and impulsive decision to edit the Ivan Šarić dab page stemmed from frustration at my inability to call attention regarding the need for a merger of the Ivan Saric and Ivan Šarić dabs and, after being informed that Talk:Ivan Šarić#Requested move 6 April 2017 is not the appropriate venue and, subsequently, after the deletion of the [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Proposed_mergers&diff=prev&oldid=776130237 merger tags I had placed at the two dabs], I decided to try the AfD.

Even though this decision brought me the 48-hour ban and the above threats of editing sanctions, if there is at least a bright spot in this, it is that the resulting attention brought help from Ivanvector who did exactly what needed to be done. If not for that, there would still be two dab pages where one would suffice.

The only other complaint mentioned above appears to be related to my earlier nomination of Catherine Blake which seems an odd choice to bring up as an example since Boleyn was the first editor at that discussion [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ACatherine_Blake_%28disambiguation%29&type=revision&diff=640924399&oldid=640923485 who offered to support a variant of my nomination]. My proposals at those nominations also had some additional support and there was no suggestion of any wrongdoing or inappropriateness on my part.

Taking a wider view, a single-page violation of the topic ban over a period of 14 months, with the violation (insertion of AfD template) not even related to the reason for the ban (length of dab page entries) should not bring forth threats of a much-wider editing ban in areas (nominations, voting, discussions) where I may be able to contribute. Those areas are completely unrelated to the very-narrowly formulated ban and no arguments above specify why, in addition to the 48-hour ban, I should be further sanctioned in such a harsh manner. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 11:32, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

::Comment on the above The [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ivan_Saric&type=revision&diff=776860175&oldid=776801242 diff] I cited in the initial post here was not just "insertion of AfD template": you substantially altered the dab page at the same time. PamD 16:39, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

:::In attempting to make my reply, above, as brief as possible while including all the key elements, I omitted an explanation relating to your lead paragraph mention that I "substantially altered the content" of the dab page. As I previously indicated, I made no edits to the content of the Ivan Šarić dab page and the addition of the AfD template represented the sole change I made there. Unfortunately, however, instead of adding the AfD template manually at 19:05, 23 April 2017, I took the shortcut of clicking on my earlier edit of 05:27, 23 April 2017 without realizing that in between those two timestamps, [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ivan_Saric&action=history three edits had already been made to the page]. Thus, I accidentally restored the page to its 05:27, 23 April 2017 form and did not know that it also automatically resulted in those changes until you pointed it out. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 12:02, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

::::Ah. That illustrates the importance of checking the effect of any edits one does, especially using any sort of automation or "shortcut". That substantial edit of yours, accidental as it may have been, was the main thing which triggered this whole thread. PamD 12:38, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

;Response from another editor

Just looking at your edits for the last 3 weeks, I saw 13 separate bits of editing around dabs from you: 2 AfDs and 11 move proposals which involved moving dabs - There was the proposed move of 7 dabs at Talk:Kalinin, Talk:Pamela Lee (disambiguation), Talk:Kevin McCarthy (California politician), Talk:Dennis Johnson (disambiguation), Talk:Don Mason (baseball). Of the 13, 12 were closed as a straight no or no consensus. I warned you some time ago that you were breaching the ban, but you replied that you were allowed to when it came to these types of discussions and I took that at face value without re-reading the ANI.

I would also say that the behaviour that led to the last ANI was not so much the overlengthy entries, but that you just wouldn't listen, over a period of years. Your response gives me no indication that there has been a change. Boleyn (talk) 15:30, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

:I participated at the Talk:Ivan Šarić RM, and I agree that Roman messed the followup badly – instead of just redirecting one dab to the other (a routine action that emerged from the discussion, and that just nobody took upon themselves to execute), he opened no less than two consecutive AfDs. Still, I think the complete topic ban on dab pages is a bit of overkill. Those RM proposals were all within reason, and the last two were closed in favor of his proposed move, while the Talk:Kalinin one was rejected largely on procedural grounds (that mass nomination was inappropriate). I am not aware of history of his topic ban. No such user (talk) 10:59, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

::Thank you for mentioning the RM proposals. As for the Ivan Šarić AfD, I did indeed mess up badly on that one and I apologize to all participants here for having to spend time discussing it as a result. In my frustration at being prevented by the topic ban from merging the Ivan Saric and Ivan Šarić dab as was ultimately done so quickly and easily by Ivanvector, I took the unwise and rash step of re-adding the AfD template, instead of the wise step of posting at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Disambiguation and asking other Wikipedians for help in unifying the two dabs.

::However, I would like to assure participants that such rashness is very atypical of me and represents a nearly unique occurrence. In my entire 11 years and 3 months on Wikipedia, I have never engaged in edit warring, 3RR or incivility and certainly have no pattern of any such behavior. The topic ban (with length of dab entries as the sole reason) has already lasted a year and two months and this single unfortunate incident should not be used as a reason for expanding the ban and barring me from editing in ever-wider swaths of Wikipedia. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 13:12, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

• We done here? d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 02:25, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

• Support modifing TBan to "broadly construed". This is crazy stuff. Those RMs were a complete waste of time. There is really no sound or logical reason that any editor cannot stay away from dabs. Softlavender (talk) 12:57, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

::It should be noted that the current issue, as it was brought to ANI, had been entirely focused upon the editing of a single dab page — Ivan Šarić — with no complaints raised regarding the length of individual entries on that page. Moreover, creation of RMs or participation in RMs had no connection with the reason for the topic ban which solely concerned the length of dab page entries. Nor has anyone had any complaints regarding the content of argumentation within the RM discussions. In fact, among the five RMs mentioned above, two (Talk:Kevin McCarthy (California politician) and Talk:Don Mason (baseball)) are not even dab pages. Another one among those five RMs mentioned above — Talk:Dennis Johnson (disambiguation) — I did not even initiate. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 22:23, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

:::To repeat what {{U|Boleyn}} said above, "{{xt|Just looking at your edits for the last 3 weeks, I saw 13 separate bits of editing around dabs from you: 2 AfDs and 11 move proposals which involved moving dabs - There was the proposed move of 7 dabs at Talk:Kalinin, Talk:Pamela Lee (disambiguation), Talk:Kevin McCarthy (California politician), Talk:Dennis Johnson (disambiguation), Talk:Don Mason (baseball). Of the 13, 12 were closed as a straight no or no consensus. I warned you some time ago that you were breaching the ban, but you replied that you were allowed to when it came to these types of discussions and I took that at face value without re-reading the ANI.
I would also say that the behaviour that led to the last ANI was not so much the overlengthy entries, but that you just wouldn't listen, over a period of years. Your response gives me no indication that there has been a change. Boleyn (talk) 15:30, 26 April 2017 (UTC)}}". Despite your claims to the contrary, all of those very definitely were directly about disambiguation pages. You should not be initiating, participating, or editing in those matters. As I mentioned above, there is really no sound or logical reason that any editor cannot stay away from disambiguations. -- Softlavender (talk) 00:57, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

• Support this proposal - closer please note I've both proposed this and retracted the proposal above, but on reading the additional comments posted by Boleyn and Softlavender afterwards, as well as reviewing the original close, I have to agree that a more broad Tban is necessary. The original topic ban restricted Roman Spinner from edits to dab pages and their talk pages, but did not address discussions related to disambiguation pages in other locations (such as in XfD venues or requested moves), and in effect this has left a loophole through which he has been able to continue editing dabs by proxy. However, it is clear from that discussion that the community expressed frustration with Roman Spinner's edits related to the disambiguation function rather than specifically from disambiguation pages, which is not covered in the wording of {{ul|KrakatoaKatie}}'s closing statement. It's clear from this discussion that his edits regarding disambiguation continue to be a problem. Modifying the topic ban to "Wikipedia disambiguation, broadly construed" makes very clear that Roman Spinner may not participate in changes to disambiguation pages by any means. The only exception I propose is clear permission to create or modify a wikilink to a disambiguation page, as editing could be quite difficult otherwise. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 01:28, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

• Support Roman was banned from editing dabs and their associated talk pages, but has continued to do so. I again point out that this ban was put in place because Roman just refused to listen, despite many warnings over a number of years, which unfortunately resulted, eventually, in ANI. I would also say that edit warring and incivility are present, from my perspective. Refusing to listen to other editors and continuing to change pages to how you want them is not civil. If warned about editing for one dab, stopping but then doing exactly the same on another dab the next day, is a form of edit warring. Bearing in mind that the topic ban was not kept to by Roman, I think he is lucky the proposal is just to make the wording clearer. Although I pointed out the 13 infractions in the last 3 weeks, he has persistently edited dab talk pages over the time of his topic ban. I also fail to see how he has struggled to avoid getting involved with dabs when there is so much else to do on Wikipedia. I support the rewording of the original ban to 'broadly construed', as the original ban on editing 'associated talk pages' has been ignored and Roman is returning to the issue of disambiguation, often several times a week, despite the topic ban. I wish him well in other areas of the encyclopaedia, but this has been going on for years and is absolutely ridiculous. Boleyn (talk) 19:01, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

:*Response from Roman Spinner. Although I posted a general overview below ("Additional statement from Roman Spinner"), it did not directly address the misperceptions mentioned immediately above, which do require a specific explanation.

::1) The initial proposal for the February 2016 topic ban concerned solely dab pages. During the discussion, another participant proposed expanding it to include dab talk pages, but no one went any further. The closing of that topic ban mentions dab pages and dab talk pages, but no other pages. Thus, even if it is confirmed that the topic ban does indeed extend to participation in RMs on dab talk pages, it should still be obvious that I violated neither the letter nor the spirit of the topic ban by participating in AfDs or other dab-related discussions which are not situated upon dab talk pages. After all, the intent of the ban was never to bar me from all dab-related pages and topics, but only from editing dab pages and their talk pages.

::2) As I previously pointed out, there are only five titles presented above as examples of my RM participation, and two of those — Talk:Kevin McCarthy (California politician) and Talk:Don Mason (baseball) — are not even dab pages. My pointing this out brought the response, "{{xt|Despite your claims to the contrary, all of those very definitely were directly about disambiguation pages. You should not be initiating, participating, or editing in those matters.}}", which can be countered with the simple question, "Why?" After all, the topic ban never indicated that I did anything improper outside of dab pages and therefore there was no reason to ban me from other pages.

::3) Another contention, "{{xt|The original topic ban restricted Roman Spinner from edits to dab pages and their talk pages, but did not address discussions related to disambiguation pages in other locations (such as in XfD venues or requested moves), and in effect this has left a loophole through which he has been able to continue editing dabs by proxy. However, it is clear from that discussion that the community expressed frustration with Roman Spinner's edits related to the disambiguation function rather than specifically from disambiguation pages, which is not covered in the wording of KrakatoaKatie's closing statement. It's clear from this discussion that his edits regarding disambiguation continue to be a problem.}}", is particularly mystifying since there is no such loophole. AfDs do not take place on dab talk pages and are concerned not with individual entries on the page, but with the deletion of the entire page. RMs, which do take place on dab talk pages, also are not concerned with editing of individual entries, but solely with renaming the page's main title header. Thus, there is no manner through which the content of a dab page may be edited by proxy.

::4) Continuing with 3), I am not aware of any complaint during the 2016 ANI regarding disambiguation "function" — the entire topic ban was based solely upon the length of dab page entries. Finally in 3), how is it clear that my issues regarding disambiguation continue to be a problem? A mistake upon a single dab page and participation in RMs situated upon dab talk pages are the sole problems mentioned. That single dab page edit (placement of AfD template — nothing related to length of entries) caused me to receive the first editing ban in the entire 11 years and 3 months that I have edited Wikipedia. As for dab talk page-based discussions and RMs, if the closing admin decides that those are part of the topic ban, then I will no longer participate in anything that is based within dab talk pages. However, as for "{{xt|his edits regarding disambiguation continue to be a problem.}}", which edits are those? Other than participation in RMs, which edits are in question and what is the problem?

::5) Lastly, Boleyn's complaint that "{{xt|Roman was banned from editing dabs and their associated talk pages, but has continued to do so}}", disregards that the single edit which brought this discussion was a one-time occurrence that resulted in a 48-hour ban, and the RMs involved strictly discussions and no editing of dab page entries. As for, "{{xt|this ban was put in place because Roman just refused to listen, despite many warnings over a number of years, which unfortunately resulted, eventually, in ANI}}", between my first edit on January 22, 2006 and 10th WikiBirthday on January 22, 2016, only 4 Wikipedians posted on my talk page, leaving, in nearly every case, gentle reminders, rather than warnings. I responded to each of the 4 editors, explaining how I measure the length of my edits and other details and was not issued any warnings — certainly none that would indicate that I was in danger of receiving a topic ban.

::6) The following statement certainly needs to be addressed, "{{xt|I would also say that edit warring and incivility are present, from my perspective. Refusing to listen to other editors and continuing to change pages to how you want them is not civil. If warned about editing for one dab, stopping but then doing exactly the same on another dab the next day, is a form of edit warring.}}". I sympathize with these feelings and regret that my edits led to the point that such sentiments needed to be expressed. However, we cannot start redefining what edit warring and incivility mean in Wikipedia terms. Wiki editors hold a variety of differing views and disagreeing on this topic with only 4 Wikipedians in my first ten years of editing, should not be made to seem that I was opposing a groundswell of opinion.

::7) Honest disagreement on an issue cannot be classified as incivility, although our disagreement regarding the length of dab page entries has not existed since February 2016 and I furthermore regret not accepting Boleyn's arguments posted on my talk page three years ago — not merely because it would have prevented the ANI problem, but basically due to those arguments standing on their own merits. As for edit warring, in my entire time with Wikipedia, I have never engaged in such behavior and, unlike the social, political or scientific edit warriors who clearly violate NPOV by favoring their own viewpoints and reinserting those viewpoints using 3RR, when, in the past, I edited dab pages, no one ever complained of NPOV violations or reinsertion of text in a manner consistent with edit warring.

::8) Ultimately, however, other than the element of punishment for the length of my pre-2016 dab page entries, what is the reason for the insistence upon a pound of editing flesh beyond the recently-concluded 48-hour editing ban. No one has even specified whether or how my participation in RMs, including those located within dab talk pages, has in any way impacted Wikipedia's integrity or caused distress for any Wikipedian. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 02:30, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

:::To repeat, Despite your claims to the contrary, all of those, including Talk:Kevin McCarthy (California politician) and Talk:Don Mason (baseball) very definitely were directly about disambiguation pages. All anybody has to do is click the links and search for your name to see that. Moreover, in addition to that repeated misrepresentation, your interminable walls of text here are not helping your case. Softlavender (talk)

::::Since the word "misrepresentation" has been put forth, it needs to be pointed out that it is, in fact, a misrepresentation to submit the edits I made to Talk:Kevin McCarthy (California politician) and Talk:Don Mason (baseball) as examples of my violating the ban against editing dab pages. Since neither one of those is a dab page, therefore I did not violate the ban by editing those two pages. When walls of text are needed to counter unfounded accusations, then walls of text have to be submitted. The explanation here, however, is as short and simple as it needs to be. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 04:47, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

:::::It was and is a misrepresentation to repeatedly claim (three times now so far) that those posts are not very definitely directly about disambiguation pages. That is why it is being proposed that your topic ban wording be changed to add "broadly construed", because you seem to not be able to resist editing disruptively concerning disambiguation pages, whether directly (on the page or talk itself) or indirectly (via RMs and related discussions). Softlavender (talk) 07:27, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

::::::I am not simply claiming, but stating directly, that without any doubt, the two pages in question are not disambiguation pages and that therefore I did not violate the wording of the ban on editing disambiguation pages by editing those two pages. Of course, there is a disambiguation element inherent in the discussions on those two pages, but there is no indication that the narrowly focused ban was meant to bar me from editing non-dab pages or participating in dab-related discussions since I was never accused of being a general disruptor of dabs, but simply of creating overlong dab page entries.

::::::As for the constantly-repeated unsubstantiated charge of "editing disruptively", I challenge anyone to point out a disruptive edit I have made. If the length of my dab page entries prior to the February 2016 ANI is considered to be disruptive, then at least any allegedly "disruptive" edits I am supposed to have made in the year and three months since then. The single dab page that I have edited since February 2016, Ivan Saric, is of course an unfortunate exception for which I have apologized, but a single exception (which was unrelated, it needs to be stressed, to the length of dab page entries) cannot be considered to represent a pattern of disruption. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 08:52, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

:::::::The 13 items in just the last three weeks alone, mentioned by Boleyn, were disruptive and wasted the community's time. They all involved dabs, that is why we are requesting that the TBan be reworded to include the words "broadly construed". Softlavender (talk) 12:58, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

Again, Roman, you're just not listening. The original ANI found your edits disruptive. You were given a topic ban you have not kept to. Although I pointed out the 13 pages you have edited in violation of editing dabs and their associated talk pages, that was just for the last three weeks. Looking back in your user contributions shows you regularly, usually weekly, editing dab talk pages. There is no point re-debating the original ANI - there were concerns about your editing of the talk pages and that's why it was explicitly banned. If you had refrained for a year and then asked for that to be lifted, that would be different. Instead, you ignored it. You keep saying there was a single exception - it has been every week! Ignoring an ANI decision is disruptive, full stop (exemplified by the fact we're all wasting our time here). You mention that only 4 editors sent you messages about your editing of dabs against consensus - that excludes the many which were on the talk pages of the dabs themselves (I remember, as I left several). You just don't listen to other editors. Can we just wrap this up now? After years of interacting with Roman, I see no attitude change and no chance he's going to really reflect on this, so rewording of his ongoing topic ban is the only option and not a harsh one given his persistent breaking of the ban on editing dab talk pages. Again, I genuinely wish you luck in other areas of the encyclopaedia, but you need to let disambiguation-related topics go. Boleyn (talk) 09:11, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose expanding the ban; this would effectively bar Roman Spinner from participating in requested move discussions where dab pages may be affected. They have routinely contributed to the RM process constructively before and after the ban. I'd go so far as to suggest that the condition that they avoids dab page talk pages be removed altogether. The crux of the problem was edits to the pages themselves (and not listening to criticism), not talk page edits.--Cúchullain ^t/c 15:32, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

::My thanks to Cúchullain for his very kind words. I also feel that after years of interaction, I must reply to Boleyn's above comment.

::Again, Boleyn, I regret that you feel everyone's time is being wasted here (there are 25 other items on today's ANI agenda), but there is nothing to be gained for yourself or for Wikipedia by pursuing the call for a pound of flesh so relentlessly. Yes, of course, all you want is for me to keep to the conditions of the ANI, but there is really no need to make it into a personal crusade. As you well know, search as you may, that other than this single unfortunate miscalculation (which did not involve the reason for the February 2016 ANI — overlong dab page entries), I have not edited any dab pages for a year and three months. At a point when everyone else in this ANI was satisfied, it shouldn't have to have been necessary for you to go into punishment overkill mode.

::However, for you, everyone else reading this, as well as for the closing, I do need to address the points you have made above. First of all, the original ANI was exclusively about overlong dab page entries and not about the broad topic of "disruptive editing", since I've never engaged in such editing. If that phrase was used at all, it was because some editors may have declared the overlong entries to be disruptive. As you well know, I addressed you directly at that ANI and declared that all my future dab page entries will be pared to the bone — basically two to four words — thus making the point of the ANI moot — other than for punishment, of course, with the ban against editing dab pages imposed nonetheless. Dab talk pages were not mentioned in the ANI submission and were added as an afterthought mid-discussion. There were no "concerns", other than the overlong entries.

::Most inappropriate, however, are your repeated attempts to influence opinion here by submitting inaccurate statistics. Such statements as "{{xt|You keep saying there was a single exception - it has been every week!.}} and, repeated by Softlavender, directly above your statement, "{{xt|The 13 items in just the last three weeks alone, mentioned by Boleyn, were disruptive and wasted the community's time. They all involved dabs}}. All of this content is deeply misleading since it all refers to a single venue, WP:Requested moves.

::Other than the mentioned single exception, the only complaint seems to be my participation in a handful of RM discussions which were held within dab talk pages. Only 5, not 13, examples of such RM participations were submitted and, to inflate even that small number, two of those were non-dab pages — Talk:Kevin McCarthy (California politician) and Talk:Don Mason (baseball) — but were nevertheless supposed to represent examples of my violating the topic ban. In actuality, although referenced as a "topic ban", that ban is very narrowly specified as solely referring to "dab pages and their associated talk pages", not to every page with a parenthetical qualifier in its main title header.

::Another attempt to influence opinion is through a misreading of the past. When you state, "{{xt|You mention that only 4 editors sent you messages about your editing of dabs against consensus - that excludes the many which were on the talk pages of the dabs themselves (I remember, as I left several). You just don't listen to other editors.}}, what you really mean is that I don't listen to you. You would be hard put to find a single editor who left a dab talk page comment relating to my edits. Even you, yourself, left no more than one or two dab talk page comments, occupying yourself primarily with deleting all my dab page and talk page contributions using WP:TWINKLE, without even bothering to read them and incorporate any of the additions and corrections (such as duplicate names or circular redirects) that I had made. A number of those mistakes which you restored to the dab pages (such as the circular redirect at The Young Lovers#Other) are still there — uncorrected years later, even when I specifically pointed it out on three separate occasions in that page's revision history. I will leave it to others to decide the disruptive aspect of such editing.

::In retrospect, however, I do sincerely regret not complying with your heartfelt posting on my talk page in 2014, not merely to have prevented the two ANIs and moved forward the ultimate inevitable compliance, but because the points that you made were reasonable and sensible. You have been one of the most productive contributors to Wikipedia and I thank you for having devoted such a major portion of your life and time to its expansion and improvement. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 16:39, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

:::Comment Roman, this is a real case of WP:Wall of text and makes it very difficult for people to contribute properly to the discussion. Your recollection of our past interactions is simply untrue, but I am not going over it yet again, this was already discussed and assessed at ANI, resulting in your topic ban. {{u|Cuchullain}}, no one's suggesting that Roman has never made a constructive edit to a dab page or dab talk page, but that doesn't outweigh the damage caused or the fact he has not kept to the original ban. The crux of the issue was his editing of dabs, you're quite right, but there were good reasons dab talk pages were included, and there was very much a problem with them. Some of the issues were like those at Katharine Blake [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Katharine_Blake&action=history], proposing a speedy deletion/move three times for same reason despite them being deleted. Others were for copying his 'improved' edits to the dab page on many dabs after removal for a discussion on whether they were better, although he didn't (although advised several times to) start a discussion in an appropriate venue, such as the active Wikiproject Disambiguation, to discuss entry lengths. I'm trying (and not quite succeeding) to avoid being led off on the tangent of rehashing why the ban was put in place, but it was for good reason, based on years of editing dabs and their associated talk pages and paying no heed to consensus. Boleyn (talk) 12:49, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

::::{{u|Boleyn}}: I'm not seeing any evidence that Roman Spinner has caused disruption by editing talk pages or participating in RMs since the ban was implemented. On the other hand, I've seen them participate productively and offer valuable input at dozens of RMs, including those where dab pages would be affected. As this proposed ban increase would preclude them from editing in a way where they continue to be productive, it should not be implemented.--Cúchullain ^t/c 13:35, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

:::::Once again I thank Cúchullain for his continued kind words and once again I must, unfortunately, respond to Boleyn's misleading characterizations of my edits.

:::::Boleyn, I deeply regret that your need to see me further punished is so relentlessly obsessive. You must feel that all that is needed is a constant repetition of "Roman just doesn't listen" or "Roman has ignored numerous warnings" and you will be believed simply on the basis of such repetition and one or two misleading examples. You write, "{{xt|Your recollection of our past interactions is simply untrue, but I am not going over it yet again, this was already discussed and assessed at ANI, resulting in your topic ban}}, but this is not a case of dueling truths or alternative truths, but only about simple facts. The ANI was called solely on a complaint regarding the length of my dab page entries and the closing decision was based upon that issue.

:::::As for my "walls of text" here, I had hoped that by dividing the points into bite-size pieces, the text would be easier for you and others to peruse. Take any one piece — each one clears a misunderstanding. Only one piece in that "wall of text", the paragraph starting with the words, "Another attempt.." was about our past interactions and was meant to display that it is you who doesn't listen — when, three times, at widely-spaced intervals over a period of 20 months, — [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Young_Lovers&action=history I pointed out in the edit summary that you have created a circular redirect, you reverted me three times without ever bothering to correct the mistake], which is still uncorrected today, more than three years after I called attention to it. There are a number of other such examples where you used TWINKLE to revert all my corrections and additions and then make no changes of your own, thus leaving the original mistakes uncorrected.

:::::All other sections, of what you see as "wall of text", concern the misleading examples you have provided to bolster support for your current calls for punishment. The same pattern unfortunately continues in your reply to Cúchullain, above. It is inexplicable that you continue bringing up Catherine Blake when there is absolutely no consensus that she is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC there and you yourself wrote [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Catherine_Blake_(disambiguation)&oldid=640924399 here], "{{xt|I would support a move from Catherine Blake (disambiguation) to Katherine Blake, and Catherine Blake to Catherine Blake (wife of William Blake). People unsure of the spelling are highly likely to type in 'Catherine' and end up at Blake's wife's page. Boleyn (talk) 09:36, 4 January 2015 (UTC)}}. I subsequently submitted each of those moves — [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Catherine_Blake#Requested_move_1_November_2016 1] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Catherine_Blake_(disambiguation)#Requested_move_4_February_2017 2] — and yet you did not support either one.

:::::Finally and, most misleadingly, you keep insisting that I "{{xt|didn't (although advised several times to) start a discussion in an appropriate venue, such as the active Wikiproject Disambiguation}} and that I was "{{xt|paying no heed to consensus}}, again presenting the impression that I ignored all advice. Once again I reiterate that between my first edit on January 22, 2006 and my 10th WikiBirthday on January 22, 2016, only you and three other Wikipedians posted on my talk page regarding the length of my dab page entries, and the postings of those three other Wikipedians were far from any warnings, but simply gentle questions regarding the length.

:::::The complaint, "{{xt|Others [other issues/other complaints] were for copying his 'improved' edits to the dab page on many dabs after removal for a discussion on whether they were better}} [you must obviously mean "edits to the dab talk page"], should be seen in light of the fact that there is not a single posting to be found — not even from you — upon any individual dab talk page regarding the length of my edits. In fact, you simply deleted (usually using TWINKLE) almost all my explanatory dab talk page postings, in clear violation of dab page etiquette (my postings did not contain copyright violations, personal attacks, incivility or anything else discouraged by guidelines) and did so without leaving, on that dab talk page, any posting of your own.

:::::As for "paying no heed to consensus", other than the 4 Wikipedians in 10 years, no one else left any messages anywhere regarding the length of my dab entries. When the ANI consensus did develop, less than two months after my 10th WikiBirthday, I immediately agreed, at that ANI, that the only dab page entries I would create in the future would be ones that are "pared to the bone" (bearing a two- to four-word description). Thus, any suggestion that I don't listen to "numerous warnings" or "pay no heed to consensus" is completely misinformed. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 07:08, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

• If this discussion is still active, I vehemently support modifying the ban to disambiguation as broadly construed. First, it's clear that the original ban was intended to cover talk pages, and this clearly needs to be enforced. I was heavily involved in the original ANI, and I'm more than familiar enough with RS's patterns to know that we will be back here, again and again, until the ban is explicitly expanded, because, as many other people have observed, RS simply cannot help themselves. The time wasted on dabs, dab talks, and ANI discussions around RS is a detriment to the project that cannot be justified on the basis of any value added. It will be better for the project, and for RS, to have a firm, abiding ban in place, so that RS might be encouraged to find other areas where their...unique habits might not be so damaging. —swpb^T 13:22, 5 September 2017 (UTC)

1) The above comments have left the completely unfounded impression that I must be a serial violator of disambiguation page content, that I must regularly disregard numerous postings of advice and warning addressed to me, that I must repeatedly do the wrong thing, that I simply don't get it and that the only way to maintain Wikipedia's integrity in this area is to completely bar me from having any contact with dab pages, including banning from participation in voting and discussions related to dab pages.

2) Since the comments don't directly address the details of my ban, let me reiterate once again that the sole reason I was brought to ANI in February 2016 and ultimately topic banned was the length of my dab page entries.

3) At the time I made my first edit, on January 22, 2006, dab pages were fairly unstructured, with a number of entries presented in an overlong manner. I took the more-detailed entries as a model for creating my own dab page entries, but limited the length of my entries to three-quarters of a single line of text, as it appeared on my screen. Between January 22, 2006 and my 10th WikiBirthday on January 22, 2016, only 4 Wikipedians posted on my talk page, mentioning that my dab page entries tended to be overly long. I responded to each of the 4 editors, taking care to explain in detail my dab page editing style. Even more tellingly, during a four-year period, between 2008 and 2012, when I edited hundreds of dab pages, not a single Wikipedian communicated with me on the subject.

4) In fact, the first time I encountered sustained opposition regarding the length of my dab page entries was 3 weeks after my 10th Wikibirthday when I was taken to ANI and the discussion participants roundly disagreed with the length of my entries and voted to ban me from editing dab pages.

5) As can be seen in that February 2016 discussion, Boleyn made a comment which ended with a question directed at me, "{{xt|Are you going to stop editing dab pages in this way? Boleyn (talk) 21:43, 16 February 2016 (UTC)"}}. My reply was, "{{xt|Yes, of course, I will stop. Judging by the comments, I am on the losing side of this argument. As I wrote near the end of my April 2014 lengthy reply to your posting, "[T]hese disambiguation pages do not come easily to me and I spend hours, sometimes days, working on single long one…" Faced with a chorus of disapproval, it would be at least counterproductive, if not masochistic, to expend so much energy/effort for such meager effect. All my future entries will be pared to the bone -- vital dates/defining date, nationality and profession/function/venue. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 18:18, 17 February 2016 (UTC)".}}

7) My reply, however, made no difference and the ban was implemented.

8) On a purely objective level, other than for the element of continued punishment, there has been no need for the topic ban since the day it was imposed, and the notion that I "don't listen" or that I "can't help myself" stems from conflating the topic of longer entries with the experience of typical topic bans imposed upon the social, historical, scientific or linguistic edit warriors who constantly spar over abortion, genocide, annexation of territory, climate change or diacritical marks over names. Since no continuing complaint, other than the length of entries, has ever been lodged against me, and (other than this single unfortunate occurrence which did not involve length of entries) it has been more than a year since I edited a dab page, if/when the topic ban is lifted, it would be extremely simple to determine whether my dab page entries are sufficiently brief to fall in alignment with my reply to Boleyn's question in the 2016 ANI.

9) As for "{{xt|I warned you some time ago that you were breaching the ban, but you replied that you were allowed to when it came to these types of discussions and I took that at face value without re-reading the ANI.}}", my reply was actually more nuanced and conciliatory, indicating that if you feel I am incorrect in my assumption that I am allowed to participate in RMs and that the topic ban is total, please feel free to visit the ANI and I will comply with the decision there.

10) In the end, what should be stressed most forcefully is that other than lengthening dab page entries in the past, there have never been any accusations of incivility, edit warring or breach of talk page etiquette [see comment by No such user (talk) 10:59, 27 April 2017 (UTC), above, regarding my participation in RMs]. Thus, there is simply no basis for proposing broad-based bans on taking part in dab page discussion and voting when no evidence has been presented that there had ever been any problem or dissatisfaction within those venues. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 12:29, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

• Comment from OP: Please will someone now close this thread, which I regret opening. I posted here after a discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ivan Saric (2nd nomination). I had made an edit to the dab page in question to resolve its problems and suggested that we redirect and close the AfD, but Boleyn reverted that edit of mine and pointed out that {{tq|Roman Spinner - who is topic banned from editing dabs - had deleted two valid entries from this dab while nominating it for 'deletion', making it look like a completely invalid dab}}. This appeared to be something worth bringing to ANI. Roman has since stated (1:02 pm, 27 April 2017) that the edit in question was accidental (restoring to a previous version without noticing intervening changes), and I AGF. I suggested closing this ANI discussion (3:05 pm, 27 April 2017), pinging the 4 editors who had already commented. Two were happy to close, one didn't reply, and Boleyn has become involved in a lengthy discussion with Roman which, a week on, is sapping the energy of anyone who is following this thread. The consensus seems to be to take no action. I hope that someone uninvolved will now close this thread, so I can take ANI off my watch list and get back to normal editing. (I often check my watchlist on my phone, where every change is listed separately, and ANI occupies all 50 diffs displayed under "Other"). PamD 07:44, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

• {{rfplinks|1=Tenebrae}}

Lately, Tenebrae has shown a WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality when it comes to RuPaul's Drag Race and the corresponding season articles. A consensus was reached that we would use the show as a primary source for the progress of the contestants (similar to Project_Runway_(season_14) & Big_Brother_18_(U.S.)). Tenebrae refuses to have any of it. Here is a list of his edits saying that he is restoring the status quo while he filibusters everyone to death because he is the only editor who isn't getting his way:

• [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=RuPaul%27s_Drag_Race_(season_5)&diff=prev&oldid=777661105], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=RuPaul%27s_Drag_Race_(season_4)&diff=prev&oldid=777661047], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=RuPaul%27s_Drag_Race_(season_3)&diff=prev&oldid=777660990], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=RuPaul%27s_Drag_Race_(season_3)&diff=prev&oldid=777660990], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=RuPaul%27s_Drag_Race_(season_2)&diff=prev&oldid=777660937], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=RuPaul%27s_Drag_Race_(season_1)&diff=prev&oldid=777660845], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=RuPaul%27s_Drag_Race:_All_Stars_(season_2)&diff=prev&oldid=777660720], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=RuPaul%27s_Drag_Race:_All_Stars_(season_1)&diff=prev&oldid=777660658], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=RuPaul%27s_Drag_Race_(season_8)&diff=prev&oldid=777660359], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=RuPaul%27s_Drag_Race_(season_7)&diff=prev&oldid=777660239], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=RuPaul%27s_Drag_Race:_All_Stars_(season_2)&diff=prev&oldid=777563127], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=RuPaul%27s_Drag_Race:_All_Stars_(season_1)&diff=prev&oldid=777563022], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=RuPaul%27s_Drag_Race_(season_6)&diff=prev&oldid=777559527], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=RuPaul%27s_Drag_Race_(season_8)&diff=prev&oldid=777559858], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=RuPaul%27s_Drag_Race_(season_5)&diff=prev&oldid=777560158]...ad infinitum.

Then there was a RfC opened which was immediately one-sided. And multiple attempts by users to call for it to be closed since consensus was quickly reached again [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ARuPaul%27s_Drag_Race&type=revision&diff=777927038&oldid=777914272] [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:RuPaul%27s_Drag_Race&diff=778054260&oldid=778040731] [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Requests_for_closure&diff=777816496&oldid=777813463]. Tenebrae then took it upon himself to gaslight and bring up the actions of opposing editors as a red herring [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:RuPaul%27s_Drag_Race&diff=next&oldid=778057494] [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Requests_for_closure&diff=next&oldid=778055968]. He has also shown that he believes he is better than others due to his time on the wiki and his arbitrarily inflated edit count. [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Requests_for_closure&diff=prev&oldid=778056807].

I want Tenebrae blocked for disruptive editing, topic banned from anything Rupaul related, and banned from opening RfCs. This user will show up here and point out what other editors are doing and repeat the same nonsensical verbiage about secondary POV pushing or whatever. nihlus kryik (talk) 00:11, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

:I am very close to blocking you for your edit summary and behavior at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Requests for closure --NeilN ^{talk to me} 00:13, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

::This is the place to discuss Tenebrae's actions. If you want to discuss mine, you should open another topic. However, you are WP:INVOLVED due to my questioning of your administrative actions before, so I highly suggest you recuse yourself from participating. Also, there was no problematic edit summary on that page, so please be more specific in the future. nihlus kryik (talk) 00:19, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

:::See WP:BOOMERANG. And questioning my admin actions does not make me involved. Lastly, [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Nihlus_Kryik&diff=778071342&oldid=778071260 gtfo] is not acceptable here. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 00:24, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

::::I'm not even sure how to respond to User:Nihlus Kryik. Except for himself and one other editor who have been uncivil and/or have been name-calling at Talk:RuPaul's Drag Race#Request for comment, all the other editors have been discussing the WP:VERIFY / WP:PRIMARYSOURCE issue reasonably and collegially. As is not surprising, there is no consensus there after just two days. I'm not sure why he would throw in irrelevant comments about edit-count. I also don't know how to respond to a new editor who has attempted to edit others' talk-page posts and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Requests_for_closure&diff=prev&oldid=778071113 even an admin's post at ANI].--Tenebrae (talk) 00:29, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

:::::Look, the editor who I said would only talk about what others are doing is only talking about what others are doing! nihlus kryik (talk) 00:33, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

::::I agree that that comment was uncivil, but it's a favorite initialism of mine. nihlus kryik (talk) 00:33, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

:::::I would also note User:Nihlus Kryik is WP:CANVASSING editors he believes disagrees with me to come to this ANI, and is not contacting those who agree with me. See [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Nihlus_Kryik his contributions] notifying only Obsidi ‎and Anonymous5454 ‎but not Brocicle or Trooper1005, for example. --Tenebrae (talk) 00:35, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

::::::More about what others are doing and no comment about his own actions. Surprising... I notified the users who believe you have been disruptive. It has nothing to do with agreeing with you. Feel free to notify anyone else. I don't care. nihlus kryik (talk) 00:36, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

:::::::You need to care as your actions are against guidelines. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 00:41, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

::::::::And yet here you are derailing another topic. As I said, if there are concerns about my edits, feel free to open another topic, but being disruptive here is not going to get anything done. nihlus kryik (talk) 00:42, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

:::::::::That's not how ANI works. The actions of all editors involved in a situation are examined. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 00:45, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

::::::::::And in fact, I do need to point out another false comment by Nihlus Kryik, that he "notified the users who believe you have been disruptive" (as if that excuses canvassing). If one does a search for the word "disrupt" at the RfC, Nihlus Kryik is, in fact, the only one who has used it against me. Not only did User:Obsidi never say I was disruptive, he in fact tempered his opposite position to mine with nuanced comments about WP:PRIMARYSOURCE. --Tenebrae (talk) 00:45, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

{{od}} (ec x3) Please bear in mind, that when you bring an issue to AN/I, your own actions are taken into consideration too. As Neil has stated, your actions, ESPECIALLY refactoring someone's comments on AN, are against our guidelines. WP:BOOMERANG exists for a reason, and you may need to be mindful of this. RickinBaltimore (talk) 00:47, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

:I didn't refactor someone's comments. I nowiki'd a template to prevent the bot from archiving. There is a massive difference and I am tired of being accused of something different. nihlus kryik (talk) 00:49, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

::Seriously? You modified an admin's decision three times. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 00:51, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

:::I did not modify a decision. I put nowiki brackets around a template to stop the bot from archiving. Why is that so difficult for you to understand? nihlus kryik (talk) 00:51, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

::::The admin closed the discussion. It should have been archived. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 00:53, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

:::::The closed it because Tenebrae showed up and derailed the conversation, like you are doing here. nihlus kryik (talk) 00:54, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

::::::So you admit you negated the decision because you didn't like it. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 00:56, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

:::::::No, because it made no mention of the closure request and purely focused on the disruptive edits by Tenebrae. nihlus kryik (talk) 00:58, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

::::::::I closed it because it was clear that the ongoing dispute from the article's talk page had spilled over to WP:AN/RFC and was likely to continue there unless halted by a third party. It had all the appearance of a WP:OTHERPARENT thread; of the [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Requests_for_closure&action=history&offset=20170430231800&limit=21 twenty edits] prior to my closure, all edits were to the same thread and were by three people, all of whom were disputants in the RfC proper; and yes, although Tenebrae did make the most edits in the block that I hatted, it was clear to me that Nihlus Kryik was not going to let it lie and the dispute could have continued for much longer. So my closure was a response to the actions of others besides Tenebrae. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 08:25, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

And while you all were worried about me, Tenebrae has [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=RuPaul%27s_Drag_Race_(season_8)&curid=47163381&diff=778080586&oldid=778077507 continued] his battleground editing. nihlus kryik (talk) 00:54, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

::I haven't had any involvement in this controversy until now. I will only comment that the conduct of User:Nihlus Kryik is one of the most flagrant examples of self-defeating conduct at this noticeboard that I have seen, but apparently User:Nihlus Kryik really doesn't understand that the filing party's conduct really is also scrutinized at this noticeboard, and apparently doesn't understand that insulting of administrators isn't a good idea. (It is true that a few other disruptive editors have deliberately insulted administrators in order to be able to argue that the administrator was involved and thus disqualified. That approach doesn't work, and sometimes results in a site ban. User:Nihlus Kryik - Stop being your own worst enemy. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:20, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

:::Concur with Robert McClenon. Regardless of the merits of the dispute, Nihlus Kryik is ensuring their complaint fails. As already said by others, editors need to expect their behaviour to be scrutinised at ANI when they are complaining about someone else in a dispute which the complainant is also involved in. Telling people to open a new thread because this one is only about the other person's behaviour is nearly always counterproductive. Still a single mistake may be ignored. However if someone keeps on insisting people aren't allowed to comment in their behaviour and goes as far as to show further bad behaviour here at ANI, many people aren't even likely to look into the complaint. The behaviour makes people think there is no merit to it. Nil Einne (talk) 02:36, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

::::Then you simply aren't doing your jobs if you think it is perfectly okay to ignore a complaint due to the complainer's actions. nihlus kryik (talk) 02:45, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

::::: FYI Nil Einne and Robert aren't admins. d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 02:57, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

:::::The problem you face, {{u|Nihlus Kryik}}, is that your own statements draw attention to your behavior. You state that consensus was reached to "use the show as a primary source for the progress of the contestants". But the discussion you linked to has "YES, RELIABLE SECONDARY SOURCES CAN BE USED FOR HIGH/LOW MARKS" as its close. Tenebrae's second RFC then involved primary sources. You declared consensus had been reached after two days and tried to have the discussion closed. Obviously any editor disagreeing with you in the RFC is going to object to you doing this. You labelled them disruptive editors and when another admin declined to close, you refused to accept that and tried to keep the close request open three times. You even went to another admin's page demanding they explain why they reverted your disruptive changes. Finally, you came here, accused Tenebrae of disruptive editing, canvassed, and seemed upset when they defended themselves. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 03:46, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

{{od}} From what I've seen, both of their behavior (Nihlus Kryik and Tenebrae) have been very poor in this area. Nihlus Kryik's been pushing what the consensus is far more expansively then can reasonably be claimed, and Tenebrae's been fighting every inch even when many editors disagree with him. Both have been having very WP:Battleground kind of mentality. Having both together have made the editing far more contentious then it should have been. I know Nihlus has made some poor decisions, but we should look at all the editors behaviors involved here not just Nihlus. I would suggest both Nihlus and Tenebrae be topic banned from the RuPaul's Drag Race pages. -Obsidi (talk) 04:33, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

:{{ping|Obsidi}} Can you provide some diffs to show Tenebrae is editing against consensus? --NeilN ^{talk to me} 04:37, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

:::I appreciate the question, and I'm gratified to see no such diffs could be provided. I do have to note that Obsidi was the closer of the previous RfC and is now on the opposite side of the issue from me in the current RfC. I'm sure he's operating in good faith, yet his unique position as a closer who's now become partisan may color his judgment. Finally, I might be misinterpreting but I think he and I agree on a basic principle: that unless a primary-source judge specifically says "so-and-so is ranked high" (or synonym) and "so-and-so is ranked low" (or synonym), then any claim of high or low is subjective, POV interpretation. I'm not sure why anyone would ever find it objectionable to give a cite supporting that what they say is true. --Tenebrae (talk) 17:56, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

::::I replied below, with the diffs requested of the conduct I was refering to. -Obsidi (talk) 18:07, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

:::::Please see my response at Obsidi's 18:48, 1 May 2017 post below. --Tenebrae (talk) 13:10, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

::I know this is isn't the place but this really needs to be resovled but do we use reliable secondary sources to source the progress tables of previous seasons? I feel like no one's really given a straight forward answer to the question that started all of this. Brocicle (talk) 05:38, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

:::See https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Requests_for_permissions/Rollback&oldid=776993652 {{re|Nihlus Kryik}}, I see that you had an old account with multiple blocks. What is the name of your old account? Doug Weller talk 10:39, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

::::We just finished a RfC in which it was disputed if even secondary sources which directly supported if a contestant was High/Low could be used. And now Tenebrae's started a second RfC in which the question is if edits that are “subjective” can rely upon a primary source. And he has edit wared (although not breaking 3RR), to keep the all edits on High/Low marks out of the article during this second RfC ([https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=778080586], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=778036485], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=777814078], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=777660359], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=777660359]). Let’s assume that by subjective he means inferences or conclusions and RfC properly resolves that such things cannot be used. That still doesn’t answer the question as to if any of the edits removed are actually “subjective” and as such he is removing edits which are not going to be resolved by the RfC on the basis of the RfC’s existence. And so even once the RfC resolves (which he is insisting on waiting the full 30 days) there are going to be further disputes on the subjectivitiness of the edits he is currently removing. That’s at least one more 30 day RfC just waiting to happen. And so we got to ask, at what point will the vast majority of editors actually be able to change the text as they think is appropriate? To me it just seems to be repeated stonewalling not based on any explicit reason as to why any given episode is subjective, but a blanket statement that isn’t true for all cases, for the purpose of not having High/Low marks in the article. And instead is going to wait 30 days for one RfC, then 30 days for another, and then 30 days for another, etc… It isn’t good behavior, imo, but it wasn’t bad enough for me to have personally brought him to ANI yet (and I’m not going to talk about behavior of editors outside of that context).-Obsidi (talk) 18:48, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

:::::I'm on editorial deadline today and probably shouldn't be taking time to respond, yet I must reply to false claims and unfounded accusations by Obsidi, who accuses me of edit-warring despite, among other things, my not making multiple edits.

:::::The diffs he offers above are in full compliance with WP:RfC protocol, which states that once an RfC begins, we don't make contentious edits to the staus-quo sections under discussion until the RfC is resolved and a consensus is reached. The edit-summaries plainly state, "Issue is under discussion at an RfC" and "Restoring status quo now that RfC has begun....." Indeed, another editor [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=RuPaul%27s_Drag_Race_(season_8)&diff=prev&oldid=777920281 here] makes the very same edit restoring status quo, and I don't see Obsidi making any claims against that editor.

:::::I have been assuming good faith all this time, and now have to state my concern that Obsidi, the non-admin closer of an RfC, has gone on to take a partisan position on the related RfC. This gives the appearance that his first close was not objective and disinterested. Perhaps his initial close should be reviewed, since a) his making unfounded accusations here shows questionable judgment and a misunderstanding of WP:RfC, and b) allowing subjective, POV interpretations of primary-source content flies in the face of longstanding Wikipedia policy, as does c) resisting quote-and-timestamp citing of the vague statements being interpreted. If the interpretations are valid, then no one should be reluctant to cite the statement.

:::::As for User:Nihlus Kryik — an extremely new, apparent SPA editor who is making wild accusations and showing highly intemperate behavior not only with me but with multiple admins — I would have to say his judgment speaks for itself. --Tenebrae (talk) 13:10, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

::::::I cited 5 edits of you reverting (all of these were to the single season page, among the dozen of reverts split among the multiple season pages). But your RfC is so broad, its practically a policy question (I’m not even sure it is relevant on that page), allowing you to revert huge areas of the article for 30 days. Everyone should be able to agree that a primary source cannot be used for subjective (or as I would refer to them as interpretations and conclusions) statements. But the RfC doesn’t decide if any specific statement is subjective, and yet you would claim under the authority of the RfC to revert whatever edits you personally think are subjective for 30 days even when the RfC won’t even resolve that question? That’s very disruptive, see WP:STONEWALL and WP:STONEWALLING.

::::::As to the quotes/timestamps, there are millions of cites without quotes on Wikipedia, and many don’t even have a timestamp yet alone a quote. If the accuracy of a citation is challenged to a source like this we usually require a timestamp (mostly for easy of verification like page numbers), but we have never required a quote (sometimes one isn’t even possible when summarizing large sections). Nor have I seen ANY policy that requires quotes on all these citations. If you would like to change that policy to require quotes, fine, but this page really isn’t the place to change policy.

::::::If you would like to challenge my close feel free (although I would ask you open another section to dispute it as this section is about potential behavioral problems). I think my close accurately reflected the discussion and the relevant policy considerations. But I would note that the closure requirements ask if “the closing editor may have become inextricably involved through previous experience in the conflict area.” Involvement AFTER the close is not relevant, I am clearly involved in this second RfC and it would be improper of me to close this one. -Obsidi (talk) 19:02, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

:::::::I have to point out that only two editors who are opposed to my position, including one highly intemperate editor, are claiming I have been disruptive. No one other than you two are saying so. And you were brought here via that other editor's inappropriate canvassing. No one else appears to have an issue. You also bring up smokescreening claims here that have nothing to do with what the RfC discussion is about, let alone this discussion. The RfC is not about policy. It is about the fact that judges on RuPaul's Drag Race don't tell contestants "you're ranked high this week" or "you're ranekd low." Therefore, you and Nihlus Kryik appear to want to be free to add subjective, POV interpretations of whatever statements are allegedly being made by the primary source. That violates WP:NPOV, WP:VERIFY and WP:PRIMARYSOURCE. Simple as that. And it's telling that you're so opposed to telling other editors exactly what statements you're interpreting.

:::::::I'm not a fan of non-admins closing RfCs, precisely for what I'm seeing here: By taking a partisan position on the related RfC, you raise reasonable suspicions that your close was not objective and disinterested, since you obviously have partisan feelings. So perhaps a review is in order. But one thing at a time. --Tenebrae (talk) 21:43, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

:::::::: Your right that so far no one other than me and Nihlus Kryik has commented, Yea or Nea, on if you were being disruptive (I assume they are waiting to see what the arguments from both sides look like before they weigh in). If it stays just the two of us, you will be fine. You are also right that I was canvased in (I am at these boards often and would have commented anyway, but I was canvassed as much as I didn't want to be and can't change that now), so the closer and other editors are free to take into account that I was canvassed into this discussion. If you would like, I can notify everyone that has been active on that page, which should reduce the problems caused by the inappropriate canvassing.

::::::::If the RfC question was "Does the show RuPaul's Drag Race ever explicitly identify someone as ranked high or low, or is any such determination an interpretation or conclusion?" then I would agree with you (and the answer would refer to specific instances in which some judges say x or y, or some other reason to believe someone was ranked high/low based on the show). But the question of the RfC doesn't even mention the show at all, it is a pure question of policy applicable to many pages: {{tq|Can editors make subjective claims based on the primary-source episodes without providing a cite (timestamp and quote) as to what exactly was said?}} Not one word of that is about the content of the show. -Obsidi (talk) 22:02, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

:::::::::Thank you for a reasoned and collegial reply. I think the fact that the RfC is specifically at Talk:RuPaul's Drag Race and not at Wikipedia talk:No original research or a similar page signals that the RfC is about RuPaul's Drag Race. I don't believe anyone at the RfC discussion seems unaware of this or believes otherwise, judging by their comments.--Tenebrae (talk) 22:07, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

{{od|:::::::::}}

• Warn Tenebrae I'm going to change my mind a bit. While I had previously recommended topic banning Tenebrae, I'm changing my recommendation to a warning. As much as I think the behavior is very WP:STONEWALLish, I'm not sure he was properly warned and allowed a chance to correct his behavior. Nihlus kryik tried to tell him, but didn't do so in a very good way based on policy, and so I could understand Tenebrae not understanding the problem. And even so, most of the problems I have seen are prior to even Nihlus kryik, in his flawed way, trying to tell Tenebrae. Once warned he should be given a chance not to do bad things prior to getting topic banned. While being warned isn't a requirement, it is usually expected prior to something as serious as a topic ban unless it is very clearly wrong behavior. -Obsidi (talk) 22:30, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
• Sorry, but following RfC protocol and restoring status quo for topics under RfC discussion is absolutely proper. In fact, least two other editors at the various RuPaul's Drag Race articles have done the exact same as I, and you're not calling them disruptive. So while I had wanted to show good faith, it's clear by your unfounded claims and accusations that your concern is solely that I disagree with you at the RfC. The fact that only you and one highly intemperate editor who sides with you are making disruption allegations is extraordinarily telling. And since no one else besides you is commenting against me at this point, your barrage of attacks is taking on the appearance of a vendetta. --Tenebrae (talk) 05:36, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

:::Wow you accuse me of a vendetta for a post in which I reduce my recommendation? That's a new one. And it isn't a "barrage of attacks," I made my recommendation and was asked to explain myself, which I tried to do, and then reduced my initial recommendation. I also dispute that any and all edits you claim are subjective for the next month are under the RfC, as the RfC question will not decide on if any edit is or is not subjective. -Obsidi (talk) 12:46, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

:{{ping|Obsidi}} Pointing out that consensus is being misused and opposing editors gas-lighting by willfully ignoring consensus, even denying it exists (essentially lying), is not battleground behavior. It's rare, but sometimes everyone else is wrong and sometimes there is a cabal.--v/r - TP 14:32, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

:::I don't care if he is pointing out that he doesn't believe there is a consensus if that is a good faith belief. I wouldn't refer to what the other editor was doing as explicitly lying or gaslighting, merely disagreeemnt as to the consensus. No my problems are diffrent than just that. -Obsidi (talk) 18:48, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

::::Claiming that a consensus exists about primary sources when the consensus is about secondary sources is straight up lying. Disruptively hounding an editor that they are wrong when, in very plain text, they are correct is gaslighting. My description is accurate.--v/r - TP 19:14, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

:::::The RfC was about secondary sources (not primary sources), that doesn't mean there wasn't a consensus in favor of using primary sources as well (although it had yet to have been established conclusivily by an RfC close so I'm assuming he was refering to a local consensus). -Obsidi (talk) 19:27, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

::It should be pointed out that when I came to the discussion about "High"s and "Low"s originally to give a third opinion, I had no previous connection to the issue at hand. I believe that the issue at hand is misunderstood by many parties and there was a lot of "I like it" voting going on which in my opinion falsely indicated consensus. I took the time to research the matter and to be fair, it's major muddy water territory. Judge ratings being different to table entries, secondary sources that only back up one episode for the table entries and it's strictly up to viewer interpretation to extrapolate the final result for these tables from the primary source for all of the episodes involved. So you can see why people are getting frustrated at each other and ending up accusing each other of misconduct. The editor who closed the original decision didn't look at the core issues at great enough detail so any apparent consensus was tilted heavily towards the "I like it" votes that saturated the discussion. I don't think that any editor (including Nihlus Kryik) taking part in that discussion should have action taken against them but the issue that this complaint stems from (about Highs and Lows) needs a decisive answer from an uninvolved editor and I'm too involved with the issue to do that now. Thank you. -=Troop=- (talk) 18:05, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

:(non admin comment) I would be interested to know why Nihlus was so concerned about the block of user {{noping|F0rmation122}}. Thanks, —░]PaleoNeonate█ ⏎ ?ERROR░ 15:40, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

::Originally I assumed it was because he lost some sort of "ally". That set of articles has editors with odd editing histories and I included Nihlus in with them. [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:NeilN&diff=777995563&oldid=777978904] {{u|Doug Weller}}'s comment above makes the situation have a lot more sense now. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 19:10, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

:::I suspected a possible sock, but it's all for the better if I'm mistaken. Thanks, —░]PaleoNeonate█ ⏎ ?ERROR░ 19:36, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

::::I stated I didn't think it was a "new" editor, hence either a sock of someone or avoiding scrutiny. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 19:52, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

:::::{{ping|NeilN}} Or a perfectly proper WP:CLEANSTART, merely not being a "new" editor doesn't mean something neferious neccessarily. -Obsidi (talk) 20:04, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

::::::"Certain articles and topics are particularly contentious, and have attracted additional community scrutiny in the form of requests for comment, community sanctions, or arbitration cases. These areas should be completely avoided by the editor attempting a clean start" Not exactly a perfectly proper WP:CLEANSTART. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 20:10, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

:::::::RuPaul's Drag Race isn't usually what I would consider a "articles and topics [that] are particularly contentious" at least usually. Now yes, there is RfCs that started after he started editing on this page, but RfC's happen on all kinds of pages. There is no community sanction or arbitration case involving these pages. -Obsidi (talk) 20:17, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

::::::::The RFC was started before their last batch of seven reverts. So we have an editor, making trivial edits to get auto-confirmed, edit warring on content under discussion in an active RFC. Far from a perfectly proper WP:CLEANSTART. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 20:35, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

• So we have an editor on an effective WP:CLEANSTART, with multiple blocks on their previous account (per Doug Weller above), whose editing under their new account includes disruption, edit-warring and incivility, and who comes to ANI demanding another edit be blocked. Have I summed this up succinctly? Black Kite (talk) 19:18, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

::He is clearly on a WP:CLEANSTART, but there is nothing inproper in that. We don't know, yet, if the previous blocks are related to this sitaution, nor any evidence that it was a clean start to evade WP:SCRUTINY. I have no problem with Doug Weller asking for the prior name to make sure the blocks are unrelated to the current situation (or at least a reason for the clean start so we can know if we should confirm that more confidentially). But so far, we should act based on his current behavior (which do seem bad enough for some kind of sanction). -Obsidi (talk) 19:41, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

:::{{ping|Obsidi}} Their previous account did not have to be editing in the same or related areas to make their history relevant. We're looking at their behavior. Edit warring, disruption, canvassing, and landing at ANI all within their first ~100 edits. This would probably result in a block if there was past similar history. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 20:06, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

::::I didn't say he had to be editing "in the same or related areas to make their history relevant" merely that we don't yet know if his history is relevant. The blocks may be on entirely unrelated issues, we just don't know yet. -Obsidi (talk) 20:17, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

:{{ping|Nihlus Kryik}} I'm a volunteer here, as with nearly everyone else. I don't have a job. Even if I were an admin, I still wouldn't have a job. Heck even if I did have a job here, it's entirely resonably my employer might feel because there are insufficient people-hours I should prioritise on complaints or problems where it looks like there is something worth dealing with and not waste my time on complaints where the complainers own actions very strongly suggest there's nothing to look at, except maybe whether the complainer merits a block. If you think people always need to take every single complaint you make seriously, not matter how flawed it is, you've got another thing coming. Especially when the people dealing with the complaint are volunteers and you have absolutely zero service commitment or undertaking from the service you're complaining about. Nil Einne (talk) 12:03, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

• OP has not used WP in 3 days. d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 11:50, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

• No action should be taken against any editor in this dispute. My suggestion would be to address the core issue of "High"s and "Low"s at Talk:RuPaul's Drag Race and have it examined in greater detail by an experienced editor who isn't involved. As I stated in my previous comment, the muddy water nature of the issue has caused significant misunderstanding between editors which in turn has caused this conduct dispute.

:I don't think it was helpful of Tenebrae to divert the attention of the issue away from "High"s and "Low"s when he started the RfC on Talk:RuPaul's Drag Race. Direct interpretation of episodes as a primary source has always been done for plot summaries of TV series. However the original issue of "High"s and "Low"s was more difficult to pin down an answer for. The tables for each episode currently state that contestants who didn't win and weren't middle of the table to be "High" or "Low". The issue from what I understand it (I'm not a fan of the show) to be is, the judges don't state anyone to be "High" or "Low" and there's only one secondary source that does indicate this and that's for just one episode. What I would suggest is that this issue is solved by adherence to policy (WP:OR in this case). I know that some editors, Anonymous5454, for example disagree with this but if careful consideration was taken to traverse the answers to this: flowchart at the start of the section on Talk: RuPaul's Drag Race then it seems inevitable that "High"s and "Low"s are inappropriate for inclusion in the articles because a secondary source would need to be acquired for each and every episode, therefore becoming an impracticality.

:I don't think it was helpful of Obsidi to close the original discussion of it without full knowledge of the above mentioned issue. They did state that it wasn't a vote but the end result was in practical terms, a vote because it was clear that the issue of "High" and "Low" table entries was not scrutinised in enough depth by the closer. My weak oppose in the original discussion was based on wanting "High"s and "Low"s but accepting the inevitability that secondary sources would not be practical to attain for each and every episode to source them.

:It was especially unhelpful of nihlus kryik to make this a conduct dispute though not to the extent of endorsement for any action being taken against them for making it one. The content dispute first and foremost should be solved and then everyone should go separate ways after a decisive answer is given to this issue. Thanks. -=Troop=- (talk) 14:31, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

::By the way, I did understand what you are saying above, and you may well be right as to the High/Low marks. Maybe the judges are clear enough, maybe the are not (I've not actually formed an opinion on that yet), although my guess is that they are clear enough in some episodes but not clear in others. But my close in the first RfC dealt with the questions actually asked in the first RfC, which was not about using the show as a primary source to determine if the judges were clear enough (instead it asked about using the secondary sources you mentioned). -Obsidi (talk) 14:47, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

I created an account and last posted on Wikipedia over 8 years ago and now have logon problems with my Wikipedia account that apparently still exists, but was deactivated... I am contacting the Admins to 1.) be sure my personal info is not duplicated by my creating 2 Wikipedia accounts that share the same contact info with 2 different email accounts and 2.) ultimately re-enable my Wikipedia edit access to allow me to suggest a few changes to the content of several Wikipedia webpages.

A problem reoccurs when I recently tried to logon to Wikipedia with the same User Name/Password from the distant past, however my correct logon info as I remember was not recognized. I attempted to revise the Password, but the User Name/Email Address was not recognized. I then tried to create a new Login Name/Password and a Display screen popped up and said my User Name and/or email address was already in use. It seems that Wikipedia will not allow to me to see or revise my original login password. New password reset attempts are not recognized because "The Account is already in use"My past logon account is in good standing with Wikipedia and may have been deactivated due to infrequent Logons.

With my older Wikipedia account still available, do I have to request that older Logon account to be recreated or resurrected by a Wikipedia Admin? Otherwise, should I create a new Account/Password and link it to another email address other than the original that I want to use? I can send the Admins more detailed account info, but I am unsure if this email is considered public or private since it goes to the Admins in a public forum...

Regards, Steve — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.189.64.108 (talk) 16:28, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

:Hi Steve. I'd say the first thing you need to do is tell us the names of these accounts, as without that it would be very hard to help. But not your email address - you should keep that private. In general, accounts are not deactivated through disuse. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 16:35, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

:Maybe try "[your old user name]~enwiki" as the user name? 8 years ago should be before global accounts. The account's name may also have been usurped by another user. In any case, telling us the account name is the best course of action. ansh666 17:29, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

::If you are getting the message that your email address is in use, and you still have access to that email address, then you should be able to request a password reset. If you can login but your account is blocked, you will need to log in to the account and then request an unblock from the account's talk page. If you don't have access to that email, then unfortunately there's nothing we can do and you'll have to create a new account. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 17:33, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

{{Clear}}

{{atop|1=Conversation has gone on for a while, and seems to be winding down.

• Per consensus, {{u|Robertinventor}} is indefinitely topic-banned from articles or edits associated with Buddhism, broadly construed and subject to the standard exceptions.
• The topic ban may be appealed in six months, and every six months thereafter. Per WP:UNBAN, these appeals should be lodged at WP:AN
• There was discussion of WP:REDACT and the refactoring of talkpage posts, but on balance there was insufficient comment to establish consensus for a sanction. Robertinventor's offer to use the sandbox sounds like a good idea and will hopefully address the issue.
• A fair part of this thread relates to content and sourcing issues. While interesting, these aren't a matter for ANI.

Happy to discuss if required, preferably on my talkpage. -- Euryalus (talk) 15:18, 6 May 2017 (UTC)}}

{{user5|Robertinventor}}

The editing behavior of Robertinventor, aka Robert Walker, is disruptive:

[1] Robert Walker changes his own old post materially, after someone has replied, a violation of WP:TALK guidelines. For evidence: [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard&diff=777990242&oldid=777989643 this] on RSN. This was [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Robertinventor&diff=777987684&oldid=777145289 after] I reminded him to not do so. This is not a new issue with RW, but one raised in past such as in an ANI review of Robert Walker's disruptive behavior, a review that ultimately concluded with a topic ban on RW. Admin {{u|Bishonen}} had observed and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard&diff=next&oldid=719115562 cautioned] Robert Walker to read WP:REDACT, on May 7 2016, advising, "It's a bad idea to change your posts after they have been answered, as this wrongfoots the people who have answered." Robert Walker's editing, after the ban expired, has ignored this.

[2] Robert Walker has repeatedly cast aspersions on {{u|Joshua Jonathan}} and I, without providing evidence and editing diffs. For example, with [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard&diff=777986688&oldid=777984415 this], he falsely alleged, "You and Joshua Jonathan often revert edits on the basis that they are only cited to Buddhist scholars". No evidence provided. See the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#Talk:Four_Noble_Truths WP:DRN], :Talk:Four Noble Truths, and [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Buddhism#Have_you_ever_seen_this_before.3F Talk:WikiProject Buddhism] for more examples.

[3] The walls of post by Robert Walker ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Four_Noble_Truths 1], [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Four_Noble_Truths/Archive_2 2], [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Four_Noble_Truths/Archive_3 3], [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Four_Noble_Truths/Archive_4 4], [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#Talk:Four_Noble_Truths 5]), (Replaced with: recent evidence in Robert Walker and the WP:WALLOFTEXT section below) with the above two behavioral issues make the situation worse. FWIW, I was [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Robertinventor&diff=776516224&oldid=776510329 recently requested] by admin {{u|RegentsPark}} to help in the dispute between Joshua Jonathan and Robert Walker, but RW's behavior is too disruptive to allow progress.

Seeking an appropriate administrative action on RW's editing privileges or warning to User:Robertinventor, User:Robert Walker and linked disclosed accounts. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 15:45, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

: {{yo|Ms Sarah Welch}} I've already said, I'm sorry for suggesting that you do edit reverts of posts of that type. {{yo|Joshua Jonathan}} does [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Anatta&type=revision&diff=643156854&oldid=643126286] and conversation about it here: Joshua Jonathan}} both have a similar view on [[WP:RS and I inadvertently types that you do edit reverts. I have never said that about you before and it was a mistake[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard&diff=prev&oldid=777994758]. As for the rest, I do sometimes say too much, but it's not intentionally disruptive and it is too late to remove that post from the RSN. If only you and {{yo|Joshua Jonathan}} would give me a friendly warning first, and there is no need to take me to WP:ANI just because I've been verbose again. I've never had any warnings of that nature from either of you. I am doing my best. I take wikibreaks as soon as I spot I'm being over verbose. My "walls of text" are not meant as fillibustering either, they are all carefully worded and thought out and the intent is to help not to disrupt processes here. I also said sorry about editing the RSN post after there were replies and said how it happened [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Robertinventor&diff=prev&oldid=777991504]. Robert Walker (talk) 19:29, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

:* Robert Walker: Not true. This is not the first time. You do it [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard&diff=777158477&oldid=777158028 again], and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Four_Noble_Truths&diff=prev&oldid=776439664 again], and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Four_Noble_Truths&diff=next&oldid=776499136 again], and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard&diff=777887877&oldid=777887674 again], and again. You apologized earlier too, but didn't change your ways. You promise to [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Four_Noble_Truths&diff=next&oldid=776468981 reply] to my request for evidence, but you don't. You do so even after my repeated requests. Not just I, others such as RegentsPark has [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Robertinventor&diff=776443711&oldid=776419452 asked you] to give specifics and evidence last week.

:: You re-instated your "change of older version of your post" twice ([https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard&diff=next&oldid=777989639 1], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard&diff=next&oldid=777989643 2]) twenty minutes "after" I [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Robertinventor&diff=777987684&oldid=777145289 requested] to stop changing your previous edits. As admin Bishonen warned you in 2016, you have done this before, and you apologized then too. Yet you keep doing it, any way. You seem to have no respect for the integrity of a discussion, or how your back-editing leaves a misleading impression to the replies of other people, on others who join the discussion later. Your back-changing your posts, after someone has already replied, robs the context of their replies and make the other editors look unreasonable. You are very disruptive. You walls of post, rapid pace of endless editing the same talk pages 100s of times [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions/Robertinventor&offset=&limit=500&target=Robertinventor within] [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Four_Noble_Truths&offset=&limit=500&action=history a week] is not helpful to collaboration. I suggest a 1 year ban, or at least a last warning to you, for the following: [1] no back editing "anything" in your non-threaded section, or in any threaded discussion, after someone has replied; [2] you provide edit diff or evidence in reliable sources, for any allegation you make. Any future failure should be grounds for sanctions. I am open to any alternate measures admins suggest based on their experience. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 20:10, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

:*Robert Walker: You apologized above at 19:29, 30 April 2017. Yet, at 19:42, 30 April 2017 you [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard&diff=778035497&oldid=778031914 do it again], with the allegation, "Especially since Joshua Jonathan and Ms Sarah Welch often explain to other editors including myself that they are not secondary sources." No diffs, no evidence. The casting aspersions without evidence by Robert Walker seems to never end. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 20:16, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

::: I only saw your message on my talk page AFTER I did those additional edits of the RSN post. I had no idea that editing a user page in my own user space would be seen as disruptive. With the Four Noble Truths talk page, most of my edits are minor edits, and they were of comments that nobody had replied to. Nobody has warned me that I shouldn't do minor edits after I have posted a post there and before they are replied to. They are usually copy editing for clarity and don't change the essential meaning of what I say. I no longer edit my posts after they are replied to in threaded discourse, or I mark such edits with underlines and strikethroughs as recommended. This is the first warning I've had about editing a post when there is a threaded discourse going on in a separate section. I do understand the reason, and I won't do it again when the sections are related as these were. And - you did collapse my first post there for several months a short while back[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AFour_Noble_Truths&type=revision&diff=774450790&oldid=774405938]. And {{yo|Joshua Jonathan}} did delete that post too[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Four_Noble_Truths&diff=prev&oldid=774196842]. Those are WP:TPOs. Neither of you have apologized for doing that yet. Robert Walker (talk) 20:30, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

:::* Robert Walker: Not true. You allege [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=778042875&oldid=778041043 above], again without evidence, that "I had no idea that editing a user page in my own user space would be seen as disruptive." If you had provided an "edit diff", admins would see that it was not your user space, it [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard&diff=next&oldid=777989643 was] "Reliable sources/Noticeboard" where you back-edited. WP:RSN is not your user space. If after your zillion edits, past admin warnings and reminders for "no back editing", past admin sanctions and blocks, you still are back editing on notice boards and dispute forums, there is a pattern of serious behavioral issues with your editing. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 20:44, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

{{od}} I put a lot of thought and care into my posts here. The numerous minor edits are part of that. It is not meant disruptively. The only reason I do this is to make the posts easier to read, to shorten them (as I tend to be verbose) and copy edit them. And in that RSN discussion you said that my post was inappropriate for the RSN. I answered explaining why it was appropriate and said I'd edit my post to make it clear why I had posted there. I had no idea at the time that to do so would be seen as disruptive. As soon as you pointed it out I realized what you meant - I should have just done a strikeout of the entire paragraph and added a replacement paragraph. But of course it was too late after I saw your message on my talk page, which I only saw AFTER I finished the copy editing to make it clearer why I posted there. The conversation is here [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Reply_by_Ms_Sarah_Welch]. Robert Walker (talk) 21:06, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

:Regarding Robert's statement "Neither of you have apologized for doing that yet": I did apologize. Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive951#Request for renewed topic-ban: "Anyway, I apologize; I reacted on impulse, as I just had enough of it." Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 21:23, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

:: Oh, I missed that. Thanks for the apology! Robert Walker (talk) 21:33, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

::*Robert Walker: Not true again. You back-changed your edits at least thrice, just today. Here is your [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard&diff=next&oldid=777988167 first back-change]. After you did this, I [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard&diff=next&oldid=777989018 reverted you] with the edit summary "please do not change your old posts/talk page comments after someone has replied". Here is your second [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard&diff=777989643&oldid=777989639 second back-change] which reverted my revert. Then you went ahead one more time, ignored my explicit request on [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Robertinventor&diff=prev&oldid=777987684 your talk page] not to keep back-editing. You thereafter did the [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard&diff=next&oldid=777989643 third back-change], not seconds after, but a while later. Please note that the change was not about "explaining why it was appropriate and said I'd edit my post to make it clear why I had posted there". You changed your post materially, with [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard&diff=777989643&oldid=777989639 back-edits] where you change your allegations against Joshua Jonathan or I, as amply evidenced in that diff.

:::So, we are not talking about simple explanation added, or indent, for format change, or spelling/grammar fix, or simple stuff that doesn't change the meaning of your post. You change the context and your allegations after someone has already replied. The problem is that this is not a new behavioral issue. You have done it in past when Bishonen warned you. Yet you keep doing it again. The walls of text, and "allegations without evidence" issue is worse disruption by you. You apologized above, yet did it again a while later, as evidenced by the links above. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 21:58, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

{{yo|Ms Sarah Welch}} Oh I see, that was you? I do remember during that editing that I pressed submit, but when I went to edit the page again, it still showed the old version. I did not think of the possibility that someone else had edited my comment - which of course I now understand you did because you had a right to do so. I assumed that something had gone wrong at my end. That's why I didn't think to check the editing history and just did the edit again. In that case, yes of course, it was of course a material change but I didn't at the time realize the rule applied, in the midst of that conversation. I did say at the end of my rewrite "(edited after discussion with {{yo|Ms Sarah Welch}} below.)"

Now I do understand, that if an editor challenges a post you make to a board, saying they don't know why you posted, or any similar situation, yes of course you have to keep the original challenged post on the board and strike it out and then add the new amended post beneath with underlines to show it is new content, so that their comment challenging your post has content. I can go and edit it and insert the old material with strike through and underline the new material if that was acceptable. But at this stage that might of itself count as back editing because other editors have now responded to the edited post. So I don't think there is much I can do except to say sorry as I did and that I'll take care not to do it again. I did add at the end (as edited )Robert Walker (talk) 10:38, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

• {{U|Ms Sarah Welch}}, your items in #3 are mostly months to years old (some are 4 years old), so please strike the entirety of 3#. That done, what we apparently have left is RW's re-factoring of his posts. I suggest a prohibition on refactoring talkpage posts. {{U|Robertinventor}}, prepare your posts in your sandbox first, and perfect them as to what you really and clearly and succinctly want to say. Then post them on article talk and do not alter them after posting. Softlavender (talk) 13:23, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

:*Agreed that links in #3 are old, but that does not mean RW's wall of texts is not a continuing issue. It is a long standing issue, that editors uninvolved in Buddhism article space have recently [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard&diff=next&oldid=777837504 expressed] their concerns / frustration on. Would you be okay if I struck the old links and replaced them with links from recent weeks from WP:DRN, WP:RSN etc? I also request admin review of #2, because casting aspersions without evidence by RW is a persistent problem? I have given recent links above, and can provide more. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 13:41, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

::*There are no aspersions in your #2 listing, only a neutral and neutrally worded observation (whether it is mistaken or not is not relevant). In terms of walls of text, I suggest that any examples should be after April 15, 2017, which is when the last ANI report ended: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive951#Request_for_renewed_topic-ban]. Also, for any example for any problem, you need to provide diffs, not pages, and the diffs need to be of his edits, not yours. Softlavender (talk) 14:00, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

:::*Softlavender: Strange. Why April 15? I appreciate your comments that you make as another volunteer and non-admin, and we all need to respect wikipedia's guidelines. Is there an Arb committee or other resolution that somehow statutorily exempts RW's behavior because he was a part of some other ANI case?

::::On #2, FWIW, here are the Arb Committee resolutions on casting aspersions (trimmed for brevity, full version [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Casting_aspersions here]):

::::::Passed 10 to 0 at 23:51, 22 December 2008 (UTC): It is unacceptable for an editor to continually accuse another of egregious misbehavior in an attempt to besmirch his or her reputation.

::::::Passed 10 to 0 at 04:10, 1 July 2009 (UTC): It is unacceptable for an editor to routinely accuse others of misbehavior without reasonable cause.

::::::Passed 7 to 0, 22:45, 13 August 2013 (UTC): An editor must not accuse another of misbehavior without evidence, especially when the accusations are repeated or severe.

::::For #2, I have already provided multiple evidentiary links above of repeated accusations by RW without evidence, against me, where these apply. FWIW, RW has accepted that he has accused me without evidence, then at 15:07, 30 April 2017 he [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard&diff=777993331&oldid=777992633 retracted] his accusation where he admitted, "As far as I know, you don't". But, hours later, at 19:42, 30 April 2017, RW [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard&diff=778035497&oldid=778031914 accused again without evidence], "Especially since Joshua Jonathan and Ms Sarah Welch often explain to other editors including myself that they are not secondary sources." RW's accusations that I commonly revert proper content, delete reliable secondary sources, etc is an accusation of misbehavior. Such accusations are a repetitive RW behavior. I urge that these past Arb committee's resolutions on casting aspersions be considered in this case as they are relevant. They are common sense, humane principles, necessary for any healthy working/volunteer environment, in my humble view. To be clear, I am not asking for indef ban on RW for this, but a prohibition, or other limited sanction on his editing privileges as a corrective measure.

::::I agree with you, Softlavender, that for #3 problem, I need to "provide diffs, not pages, and the diffs need to be of his edits", not mine from recent weeks. I will do so, and update #3 today. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 14:49, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

{{yo|Ms Sarah Welch}} I have only once said that you revert edits, which was a mistake, {{yo|Joshua Jonathan}} does, but you don't. However I did provide a diff for your statements about secondary behaviour; possibly I might have saved it first before adding this. [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Robertinventor&diff=prev&oldid=776575916]

{{yo|Softlavender}} - do you say then that it is an issue that I edit my posts after I posted them, when nobody has replied to them yet? Until {{yo|Ms Sarah Welch}} said about it in this action, nobody has said that this is a problem as far as I remember. My verbosity, yes, and I used to edit posts after they were replied to, until I was told that you can't do that unless you use strikeout and underline. Since then I have been careful to use strikeout and underline. I can compose my posts in my sandbox, yes.

In those edits I'm going by this section of WP:REDACT.

{{quote|"So long as no one has yet responded to your comment, it's accepted and common practice that you may continue to edit your remarks for a short while to correct mistakes, add links or otherwise improve them. If you've accidentally posted to the wrong page or section or if you've simply changed your mind, it's been only a short while and no one has yet responded, you may remove your comment entirely."}}

It might be that I haven't understood it properly, or that my interpretation of "a short while" is different from that of other editors. Robert Walker (talk) 15:51, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

:RW, there is no way you can "re-revert" my revert of your back-editing accidentally, then preserve it, and add more back-editing for the third time quite a while later (see above for diffs). Complete prohibition on your refactoring/back-editing is the minimum we must do here to address #1. The issue #2 isn't that you alleged something once. The issue is that you repeatedly "accuse without evidence". You apologized. I was willing to forgive you, thinking of dropping the stick and moving on. Yet, you again "accused without evidence" many hours later. This behavior of yours has not stopped, and this is disruptive (see above for diffs). Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 16:29, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

::{{yo|Ms Sarah Welch}} I assure you I had no idea. I composed that text first in a text editor on my computer and copy / pasted it in, used the preview button and then edited it, clicked submit and did more editing. But then I found that it didn't seem to have "stuck" - it still showed the old version. I didn't know why that happened, but I just copy / pasted my version on my computer back in again and clicked submit again. This time it worked. I did not realize that the reason it didn't work the first time was because you had reverted it.

::{{yo|Softlavender}} I've just started using my sandbox for my talk page posts, composed a long comment to {{yo|Joshua Jonathan}} there first. I think this may be a breakthrough for me. It's amazing that I've been editing here so long and not really properly appreciated the use of the sandbox, you will see from its editing history that I last used it in 2013 and I don't think I have ever used it to draft comments before. [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Robertinventor/sandbox&action=history]. Perhaps someone suggested this to me before but if so I forgot. I did try creating comments in subpages of my user space but that got clumsy plus there's the matter of pings, you don't want to ping someone to a subpage of your user space. I assume that pings don't work from the sandbox? Robert Walker (talk) 16:52, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

{{od}}

Robert Walker: The use the sandbox idea, including for drafting, has been suggested to you several times. For example, even [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard&diff=720554943&oldid=720553334 during] the last AN 2016 case review on you, which led to a six month ban for you a year ago. Back then, you seemed to [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard&diff=718909290&oldid=718906123 acknowledge and accept] the "draft in sandbox" idea. Yet here we are. Nothing really changed, and the walls of texts and other behavioral issues are back. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 17:06, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

: Please check my sandbox history. You will see I never used it between 2013 and the present. I have started to use it now and it makes a big difference. I think it will mean an end to this re-editing of posts as my problem always was that I find it awkward to edit my posts in the preview screen and there's the issue of possibly losing data. I may have missed something but I don't remember anyone suggesting this before {{yo|Softlavender}} and surely I would at least have tested the idea in my sandbox at least once if they had and I'd understood what they were saying. Robert Walker (talk) 20:26, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

::Robert Walker: I gave you [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard&diff=720554943&oldid=720553334 the link] above from May 2016, a year ago, which explicitly mentions the "sandboxes" suggestion. Read the whole AN case thread through the close by admin EdJohnston. We went over this, with a lot of effort and numerous members of wikipedia community who tried to help you and offer your constructive suggestions. If you didn't read it, or if you ignored it all then, it is not the community's fault. Because you were a focus of the May 2016 AN review. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 21:10, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

:Robert, to answer your question, yes, you in particular should refrain from editing your posts once you post them, no matter whether anyone has responded to them or not. If necessary, this may be made into an administrator's official sanction in order to prevent disruption. Softlavender (talk) 00:23, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

::{{yo|Softlavender}} Okay that's clear. Sorry only just saw this post. I pinged you in another post not sure if you saw it. But I now use the sandbox unless a post is very short like this one. This will completely remove the need for refactoring my posts after I post them. I don't know how it is that I can have not realized this way of using the sandbox until you suggested it and that basically was the problem that I was using talk pages as my sandbox. Maybe I thought it was just for trying out wikipedia or doing early stage drafts of article content? I hadn't used it since 2013. Robert Walker (talk) 21:49, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

The walls of text by Robert Walker issue continues, which combined with #1 and #2 issues above have been disruptive. This issue needs to be considered in light of the relevant past, so measures if any proposed and considered, weigh whether and to what extent past measures on Robert Walker's walls of text have helped. The disruption by RW's walls of text was noted for example, during a 2016 AN review process by {{u|Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi}} ([https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard&diff=720507878&oldid=720507173]), {{u|JimRenge}} ([https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard&diff=720068417&oldid=720068398]), {{u|Robert McClenon}} [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard&diff=prev&oldid=718855839], others there, and by the case closing admin {{u|EdJohnston}} ([https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard&diff=722347413&oldid=722346854]).

Evidence of walls of text from recent weeks include:

• Reliable sources/Noticeboard: [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard&diff=prev&oldid=777946842 1], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard&diff=778141181&oldid=778138525 2], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard&offset=&limit=500&action=history others]; Number of posts by Robert Walker since 07:33, April 30 2017: 80

• Dispute resolution noticeboard: [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard&diff=777873568&oldid=777872227 3], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard&offset=&limit=500&action=history others], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard&diff=777555773&oldid=777452658 4], Number of posts by Robert Walker since 08:27, 26 April 2017: dozens, not counted

• Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Buddhism: [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Buddhism&diff=776002472&oldid=775987356 5], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard&diff=777873568&oldid=777872227 6], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Buddhism&offset=&limit=100&action=history others], Number of posts by Robert Walker since 22:29, 10 April 2017: 73

Recent comments by other wikipedia editors:

1. RSN volunteer [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard&diff=778146612&oldid=778145787 comment]: "If neutral sources also discuss the general views of Theravadan Bhikkus, then of course those academic views should be included. The massive walls of text here discouraged me from adding to the discussion earlier. Thus, please note that I'm only adding one view to this very particular usage, and have no time to enter into the meandering philosophical meta discussion above and in the countless linked discussions. First Light (talk) 12:18, 1 May 2017 (UTC)"

1. DRN volunteer [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard&diff=next&oldid=777837802 comment]: "As a side-note, please try to be as concise as possible..That you want to include more non-Western views is not an unreasonable demand. Unfortunately, the fact is that walls of text don't help always and the length and sheer volume of your posts makes it impossible to figure out what exactly you're seeking. Winged Blades Godric 15:34, 29 April 2017 (UTC)"

The above evidence is being submitted per the request of Softlavendar in the section above. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 16:29, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

Not again! As the original posters have noted, this has been going on for a year. The subject editor, Robert Walker, has some issue about the articles on Buddhism. I don't entirely understand what the issue is, both because it appears to be something specific to Buddhism that isn't relevant to non-Buddhists, and because the great length and number of the posts are a barrier to understanding. I think that RW is unhappy that the articles were substantially reworked by User:Joshua Jonathan (JJ) and User:Ms Sarah Welch (SW) in 2014, but I am not sure. In any case, the issue of the length and number of his posts has been brought up here in the past, and it appears that it resulted in restrictions being imposed, but they have expired. In any case, an attempt was made to discuss at the dispute resolution noticeboard, but was closed; my own thought there was that RW didn't identify a specific content issue, and DRN is for the discussion of article content issues (not meta-issues or conduct). The issue was then taken to the reliable source noticeboard, which is now being swamped by walls of text, but the issue doesn't seem to have to do with specific sources but a general philosophical complaint about the difference between Western academic sources and traditional Asian sources. It appears that all efforts to get RW to state a concise issue are unsuccessful, and, besides, he apparently can't just post a statement (whether or not a wall of text) without editing it while others (JJ and SW) are responding. I don't see any likelihood of a collaborative solution for an editor who can't take part in collaboration. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:02, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

: {{yo|Robert McClenon}} - for clarity, I did not take it to the DRN. I said on my talk page that I am sure a DRN won't work, having identified what I believe to be the issue, that we have different SUBPOVs here, it's towards the end of this comment [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ARobertinventor&type=revision&diff=776555552&oldid=776537283]. Soon after that, {{yo|Joshua Jonathan}} took the case to DRN. I never wanted it at DRN, but once there of course I made the best case I could there. Robert Walker (talk) 20:22, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

:::It isn't important whether RW or JJ took it to DRN. It is important that the length of RW's posts made it impossible for the DRN volunteers to facilitate moderated discussion or to identify what the issues were. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:40, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

:: The issue of me continually editing my posts should now be solved with {{yo|Softlavender}}'s suggestion to use my sandbox. I haven't re-edited any post since then after posting, only two posts of any length since then. Please let me use this for a while so you can see that it works, as I am sure it will. Robert Walker (talk) 20:29, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

::::That is only one part of the problem, and has apparently been proposed and accepted and forgotten in the past. However, the refactoring of talk page posts is only one part of the problem, because the length of the posts is also a problem. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:40, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

::::: That's true. However my editing often reduces the length of posts. I often start with a post that is too verbose, and if I don't get any replies to it, then I am able to trim it down a lot by removing repetition. You should see shorter posts as a result. Also note that {{yo|Joshua Jonathan}} also often does extremely long posts, he is as verbose as me, or not far off - if I had the opportunity to trim my verbose posts as I will be able to do now, you probably won't see any difference. And my posts throughout are written with great care and thought to present the point as clearly as I can and are never intended to be disruptive. Robert Walker (talk) 20:53, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

::::: If anyone finds that I am saying too much - why not just go to my talk page and say "Look you have said a bit too much in that conversation, why not take a wikibreak for a day or two?" That is what I do when I spot that I've been too verbose myself. Why take me to ANI just to tell me that I've been too verbose again, and try to get me topic banned for it?

::::::User:Robertinventor - The problem is, first, telling you that your posts are too long simply results in a reply, which is more words, and, second, telling you to take a break is a little late after your overly lengthy post has made concise discussion impossible. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:06, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

::::: {{yo|Robert McClenon}} To reply to your earlier comment, the essential point is that these articles do not present the views of sutra tradition Buddhists. Just as Christians believe in the Resurrection of Jesus - sutra tradition Buddhists believe that Buddha became enlightened as a young man aged 30 and at that point he was already free of the unsatisfactoriness of suffering, old age, sickness and death, even though he went on to become old, sick and die. I have given plenty of cites to WP:RS in sutra tradition Buddhism, but these are not accepted as proving the case because they are written by Buddhists! This is one of many issues with these articles but one of the most striking, It's like coming across an article about Christianity that doesn't explain that Christians believe in resurrection. It's a simple point. {{yo|Joshua Jonathan}} and {{yo|Ms Sarah Welch}} complicate the discussion every time I mention this by saying that Buddha said it was his last rebirth, which is true. But that is not what enlightenment means to Buddhists, it means this cessation of dukkha which in the case of Buddha he realized as a young man. So the main issue can be stated concisely. There are many other issues of a similar nature in the articles. So, the problem I have is not so much stating the issues, as in convincing editors here who are unfamiliar with sutra tradition Buddhists that this is what Buddhist believe. It is tough to do this against all the claims of the opposing editors that we do not have this belief. As for the reliable sources, my "Four Noble Truths" colour coded by the sources shows how the new version relies almost entirely on western sources such as Anderson for nearly every sentence in the lede. This is why it is essential to establish that it is okay to use the traditional Buddhist sources to describe the beliefs of sutra tradition Buddhists. {{yo|Dorje108}} agrees that they are POV and he is the only other sutra tradition Buddhist to comment on the dispute. See [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard&oldid=777906333#A_commentary_on_dispute_by_Dorje108]. As for my decision to take it to the RSN, that was the recommendation of {{yo|Winged Blades of Godric}}. He made this recommendation as one of two possibilities when I closed the dispute. [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard&diff=next&oldid=777906333]. I have never taken a case to the RSN before and was unfamiliar with how it works and I didn't use their recommended format of Article, Content and Source as three bullet points and wrote too much. If I'd known how it worked, I'd have written my post like that right away, and it could have saved a lot of unnecessary meta discussion. Incidentally I composed this reply in my sandbox as you can check easily. So far I have saved 11 minor edits on the talk pages by using the sandbox. This is going to make a huge difference to those issues. Robert Walker (talk) 20:55, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

::*Robert McClenon: I concur with rest of your observations, except one detail. I should set the record straight on that, to avoid giving an impression that Joshua Jonathan and I have been "team editing" the affected articles since 2014. The credit for the improvements to Four Noble Truths etc articles in 2014 and 2015 do not belong to me, it belongs to others including Joshua Jonathan. My first edit to Four Noble Truths article was on [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Four_Noble_Truths&diff=717759734&oldid=717694728 29 April 2016], after being invited to review the article earlier about a year ago because of a dispute which included RW and JJ. In other words, JJ and I haven't been working together on the disputed articles since 2014. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 20:57, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

{{od}} {{yo|Robert McClenon}} - when has telling me that my posts are too long lead to more replies? Except here of course, where you say that I will be topic banned from the Buddhism topic area for six months in which case of course I need to reply. But has anyone ever said this on my talk page? Or suggested I take a wikibreak because I'm being too verbose? I don't know of any examples. Whenever they think I am being too verbose, they take me straight to WP:ANI and the first I hear of it is a post on my talk page saying I have an action against me here. Robert Walker (talk) 21:14, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

Since all efforts both by JJ and SW and by uninvolved administrators and editors to get the issue defined concisely have failed, I find it necessary to propose that Robert Walker be topic-banned from all posts about Buddhism, broadly defined, for six months. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:02, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

• Support I've been looking over the discussion both here as well as on WP:RSN and agree that this is the only way forward. Robert Walker needs to learn the difference between primary sources and secondary sources, the importance of an orderly discussion, the importance of focused suggestions, as well as the disruptive nature of walls of text that are being constantly edited and re-edited. At the same time, I feel that they are acting in good faith. Perhaps a topic area in which they are not so deeply invested will help them learn the way of the wiki. I'd prefer to see some evidence outside Buddhism that they can edit meaningfully before a topic ban is lifted so would also support an indef topic ban with the possibility of applying for its removal after six months. --regentspark (comment) 21:01, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

::: {{yo|RegentsPark}} You don't need proof that I can edit meaningfully here as I edit in many areas. I wrote about half of the article Planetary protection - and ditto for Interplanetary contamination. I wrote Present day Mars habitability analogue environments on Earth recently. Also Modern Mars habitability recently. Both of those are almost entirely my work. So is the Hexany article. I have many contributions here also in the articles on microtonal music and I do many minor edits throughout wikipedia adding content. This dispute has rather distracted me away from that activity, which is what I normally do here. This whole thing started in 2014 when {{yo|Joshua Jonathan}} rewrote what I considered to be some of the best articles in wikipedia, such as {{yo|Dorje108}}'s original article on Karma in Buddhism, which had been in a mature state for a long time. I wanted to do something about this as a reader who admired his work on those articles, which represented a complex and intricate subject with careful use of what we regard as the WP:RS in the Buddhism topic area as sutra tradition Buddhists. Robert Walker (talk) 21:23, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

::::Robert, I was hoping it wouldn't come to this, but the walls of text, the refactoring, etc. makes it hard to see what else we can do. This is a volunteer effort and it is impractical to expect anyone to read and make sense of what you're getting at. I was hoping you would see that but it doesn't look like that's going to happen. You're way too invested in this topic - work elsewhere for a bit and then let's see. --regentspark (comment) 22:00, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

{{od}} Yes okay. But do you need to topic ban me to say this? Why not just kindly post to my talk page making this suggestion? I am going to take a wikibreak right now. Anyone could have suggested that at any time through these proceedings, and I'd have listened to them, indeed I'd have paid very careful attention to anyone who had made that suggestion. They didn't need to take me to WP:ANI. Just say that my verbosity was a problem again. That would have been enough. Robert Walker (talk) 22:38, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

::No. No. We have said that your verbosity is a problem many times, and you have acknowledged it, but that hasn't changed anything. It apparently is necessary to impose some sort of sanctions on you. You say that you need to be told to take a wikibreak. Okay, but - There is a type of editor in Wikipedia, of whom you are not the only one, who is passive-aggressive, who edits tendentiously in some way or other, and then, when brought up to this noticeboard, says that they plan to take a wikibreak, sometimes a long wikibreak. This does stop whatever the problem is for a while, but, after the break, they come back, and the disruptive behavior resumes, and the slate was swept clean because the community thought, in good faith, that the problem was solved, which it was, for a little while. Yes, apparently we have to take action anyway, rather than just delaying a decision until you come back and your verbosity is a problem again. I know that you mean well, but that doesn't make you a constructive editor in the long run. Yes, something has to be done other than just delaying a decision until your wikibreak is over. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:00, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

::Robert McClenon is spot on. Look at the links above, RW. The DRN volunteer mentioned your wall of text is a problem. The RSN volunteer said the same. I said the same. RegentsPark appealed to you last week about it (again all this is linked above, in some cases with quotes). The wikipedia community is here to contribute to building a free and ever-improving encyclopedia that is available to every poor or rich fellow human being with an access to the web. It is not here to endlessly deal with your or similar disruptive behavior. We are well past the stage of cautioning, pleading, suggesting, rinsing and repeating our suggestions to you. Please reflect on the fact that you, RW, have been through this cycle before in 2016. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 23:40, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

::: But why do you take me straight to ANI without saying on my talk page that I am being too verbose? There hasn't been any example where anyone has said "We are thinking of taking you to ANI, can you do something about your behaviour"? If I felt another editor was being problematical in their behaviour I would go to their talk page and talk to them 1 on 1 about it first. You all agree that I act in good faith and am motivated and want to help wikipedia. I think you'd be surprised at what happens if you tried this. And make suggestions to help. {{yo|Softlavender}} was the first one to do that with her suggestion to use the Sandbox - which would have completely eliminated the refactoring issue if someone had mentioned that to me, maybe someone did and I missed it, but nobody really tried to help with the issue to the extent of actually talking about it to me as a person in a friendly way to try to help. Robert Walker (talk) 02:58, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

::::* Please read WP:TALKNO, particularly the part about admin threats. RW, you seem to be telling the community what it needs to do. It is time you took some time off and reflected on, "what do I need to do to help other editors and the wiki collaboration process?" We have been through the cycle of suggestions in 2016. Please read that entire thread. We can't keep going in passive-aggressive circles. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 04:06, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

:::::: Oh, is that the case? But if you aren't permitted to say you are considering taking me to ANI, you could still say that I am being too verbose, There would be no need to say anything else. I'd get the hint quickly enough I assure you. I'd instantly take a wikibreak probably after the experience of all these ANI. I mean at an early stage. Not when things have got to the point where you are just about to take me to ANI pretty much no matter what I do. I've added a proposal below, that I am prepared to limit myself to one post every ... hours (any time interval) in the Buddhism topic area. Would that be a solution? How could I be too verbose if I did just one post every x hours? I have already fixed the refactoring with sandbox and in a situation like the RSN, just by understanding how the rule applies in that situation, which I somehow missed. Please see #Offer for future editing behaviour below. Robert Walker (talk) 04:37, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

:::::::[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ARobertinventor&type=revision&diff=774577173&oldid=774524706 9 april 2017]: "Robert, you asked me before to tell you, in a kind way, when your edits were crossing a line. They are, again. We've discussed this over and over again. So, please stop, okay? Just drop it." Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 04:40, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

::::::@RW: Please see WP:WALLOFTEXT. So many editors, including DRN/RSN volunteers kept and keep reminding you of your "wall of text" issue. Please study the diff links above. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 12:32, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

:::::::: {{yo|Joshua Jonathan}} Oh that was a comment you made to me immediately after you had deleted my first and succint post on the 4NT talk page for several months[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Four_Noble_Truths&diff=774136747&oldid=774116186]. {{yo|Farang Rak Tham}} restored it[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Four_Noble_Truths&diff=next&oldid=774136747], {{yo|Ms Sarah Welch}} collapsed it again along with just about everything else on the page[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Four_Noble_Truths&diff=next&oldid=774405938] and when I protested about this on your talk page, you made this "crossed the line" comment which you just quoted[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ARobertinventor&type=revision&diff=774577173&oldid=774524706]. As I said then, "When I asked you to warn me about any problematical behaviour first and attempt amicable settlement before taking me to WP:ANI, it wasn't intended as permission to delete my talk page posts". [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AJoshua_Jonathan&type=revision&diff=774737886&oldid=774461706]. I think it has to be a credible line. Immediately after your own serious WP:TPO that I had crossed a line, deleting my first post after several months, how could I take that seriously?

:::::::: Yes, it is true that later, when talking on the Buddha Project page when I complained there about you deleting and collapsing my posts - I'd got a bit het up about it all, and I get verbose when I get het up. I did realize this eventually by myself, and stopped and took a wikibreak. But you took me back to WP:ANI just hours into my wikibreak. That would have been a good time to warn me of my verbosity. Instead of taking me to ANI after I had already noticed my verbosity and stopped, you could have commented on it at the time when I actually was verbose. Or similarly, when I was getting over verbose on the RSN page. Then I would have seen immediately that you were right, stopped and taken a wikibreak. Timing is everything here.Robert Walker (talk) 22:42, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

• Support Robert McClenon got it right: RW is unhappy with the fact that "Karma in Buddhism" and "Four Noble Truths" were reworked (thanks for the honours, MSW). Robert admits this himself: "This whole thing started in 2014 when @Joshua Jonathan: rewrote what I considered to be some of the best articles in wikipedia." This rewriting was not just about primary and secondary sources, it was about WP:RS, WP:QUOTEFARM, WP:OR, WP:SYNTHESIS, WP:UNDUE, WP:NPOV, WP:CHERRYPICKING, and WP:RNPOV, as explained in every minute detail at the talkpages and notice-boards. I've been interacting with him now for 2,5 years; while others can summarize in a few lines what those policies imply and move on, RW is still trying to figure out what the first policy mentioned here means, nay, how he can bend it to get what he wants. So, how long will it take him to understand this first policy, let alone the rest? The :Four Noble Truths article is now stuffed with references, from both Buddhists and academich scholars, and complete subsections, which answer Robert's concerns (neat summary). I've also made changes in response to the concrete suggestions he made (another neat overview). To no avail: Robert wants his preferred versions back. No arguments will help here. Despite all the explanations about this, for Robert it comes down to "I don't like it, because it does not reflect my pov." So, yes, I support a topic-ban; I've wasted so incredibly many hours on this yet, that a break is very welcome. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 04:11, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

::Also support indef-topic-ban, following Hijiri88. Unfortunately, I don't expect Robert to change. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 04:43, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

• Support-Echo {{U|RegentsPark}} word by word.Winged Blades ^Godric 07:02, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
• Support - Having watched RW's participation at DRN and RSN, I think this is quite necessary. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 15:47, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
• Support indefinite topic ban with a possibility of review after six months. The condition for lifting the ban should be a thorough understanding of how Wikipedia policies apply to regligious topics. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 11:19, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
• Support I could have sworn this solution already passed one of the previous times this problem came up. Oh, well. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 10:18, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
• Comment - He was topic-banned from Four Noble Truths for six months. He came off topic-ban, and is still or again ranting that he liked it the way it was in 2014. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:18, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

:::Ah, okay. Thanks for clearing that up. Changed !vote to neutral on set-term ban as proposed, support indefinite topic ban. Robert is a repeat offender, the previous fixed term ban solved nothing, and he doesn't seem to be learning. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 01:12, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

:::{{re|Robert McClenon}} Would you be willing to amend your proposal? An increasing number of "support"s (RsP, me, Sarah, JJ, WBoG, Jim...) are explicitly for an indef TBAN, but with the main proposal as it is and some of the "support"s not clarifying which version they support, this might wind up being one of those instances where a closer (even a non-admin closer) has complete and arbitrary freedom to super-!vote for whichever option they like. I know Wikipedia is not supposed to be a [http://oyc.yale.edu/transcript/166/clcv-205 democracy], but it's also not supposed to be a [http://oyc.yale.edu/transcript/156/clcv-205 tyranny]. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 16:00, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

::*Comment - I hadn't researched the history fully when I proposed the six-month topic-ban. I remembered that then he had said he would take a wikibreak when he was at WP:ANI. I now see that he was already given a six-month topic ban. At this point I don't want to try to amend this proposal, because that will throw the !votes into question even worse than his amending of talk page posts, but I will concur with a stronger separate proposal for an indefinite topic ban. This is unfortunate, but his insistence on the use of walls of text to argue in favor of tagging is disruptive. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:05, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

::::{{re|Robert McClenon}} It's not actually all that complicated. Just add an addendum immediately below your initial proposal, and ping the users who haven't explicitly supported one version or the other, which on closer examination is only two: Kautilya3 and Ealdgyth. Even if both of those users showed up and said "No, the ban should be for six months, no longer." (not actually very likely, given what they did write in their !votes) it would then be 7-2 in favour of an indef TBAN, with unanimous support for some kind of TBAN; if a closer decided to rule in favour of the 22%, one of us could easily ask for a close review. With your initial proposal as-is and a bunch of editors !voting "support" (even in a nuanced fashion), though, a closer would have more freedom to do whatever they wanted with this. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:46, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

::*Comment - Tagging of articles for POV or other issues is primarily done to relatively new articles, especially by New Page Reviewers, and is intended to get the articles fixed, not to register a long-term dissatisfaction which the poster can't solve by consensus. This has been discussed at length. Either rewrite or roll back the articles, with consensus, or leave them alone. Tagging them, after such lengthy discussion, is just a proposal for whining. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:05, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

::::: It is often used for mature articles too. Example: Jainism is currently tagged with it. That's been in wikipedia since 2002[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jainism&action=history&year=2002&month=-1&tagfilter=]. Robert Walker (talk) 00:27, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

:::::: Diff for the tag [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jainism&type=revision&diff=777861954&oldid=777859815] which was added to the Jainism article by {{yo|Ms Sarah Welch}}, the same editor who removed my tag from Four Noble Truths. I found this by going to the "What links here" page for the tag and found an article in the Indian religions area tagged in the same way as I propose for FNT. The aim of a tag is to get more readers to join talk page debates and to alert readers that its neutrality has been disputed. I didn't add a tag during the previous disputes, because even adding a CN tag was immediately reverted. This time I was a bit braver, plus I'd identified not just a POV but clarified in my thought that we seem to have two distinct and very detailed SUBPOV's on the entire content of the article. That was why I felt we had a new thing to discuss, new since a month ago. Robert Walker (talk) 08:43, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

::*Comment:{{re|Robert McClenon}}, I support Hijiri88´s [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=778745622&oldid=778745393 proposal]. JimRenge (talk) 01:06, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

• Support - good heavens, he's still creating walls of text in this area? Especially after the following section ... he obviously isn't getting the idea. Ealdgyth - Talk 11:54, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
• Support: [1] RegentsPark's [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=778227849&oldid=778227757 suggestion] of an indef Buddhism topic area ban on RW with a possibility of 6 month review by any admin; [2] Softlavendar's [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=778256237&oldid=778255960 suggestion] that RW be prohibited from "editing his posts once he has posted them, no matter whether anyone has responded to them or not. If necessary, this may be made into an administrator's official sanction in order to prevent disruption." This would apply site wide including noticeboards such as AN, DRN and RSN. [3] On "accusations/allegations without edit diffs or appropriate evidence" issue, a caution would suffice. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 17:09, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
• I am also fine with lesser sanction such as one suggested by Robert McClenon, or whatever is considered appropriate by admins. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 17:12, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
• Support: Robertinventor/Robert Walker tries to force his POV by posting walls of text. An indefinite topic ban from all Buddhism related articles is needed to prevent further disruption. JimRenge (talk) 15:33, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

• I am prepared to offer to do no more than one talk page post per [unit time] in the Buddhism topic area. Time period to be arranged. Robert Walker (talk) 01:29, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

::May be after 6 month expires, and after an admin has reviewed your editing progress as RegentsPark suggested above. It appears your alternate (disclosed) account(s) – Robertinventor and Robert C. Walker – have been active on :Talk:Microscope. Your accounts are by far the most [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Microscope&diff=775294218&oldid=775290630 verbose] poster [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Microscope&offset=&limit=500&action=history there] as well in April 2017. I see a FORUM-y style, [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Microscope&diff=775294218&oldid=775290630 without] links to external sources, without edit diffs, etc. There are some IPs active too, which AGF is not you. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 12:32, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

::: Please can I remind you of WP:AGF. On that discussion see [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ARobert_C._Walker&type=revision&diff=775699510&oldid=775175716]. And I identify Robert Walker and Robert C Walker as the same user and explain the reason for this [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Microscope&diff=prev&oldid=775274544] Robert Walker (talk) 19:49, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

• Comment - since this offer to limit my posts to say one a day, has not been accepted, I don't see how I'd ever be able to appeal an indef topic ban. This means that for the rest of my life I will never be able to mention that I'm a Buddhist to anyone on wikipedia or discuss Buddhism with anyone here. Is that a just response to someone who has been a bit verbose, who has already said that he is now using the sandbox for every post of any length, so won't be refactoring, and who has offered to limit my posts to prevent verbosity? What can I do differently in an appeal that I haven't already offered to do right here, right now? Robert Walker (talk) 00:48, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
• :As long as your biggest concern is not being able to tell other editors that you are a Buddhist and not being able to discuss your religion with others on Wikipedia, you're in the wrong place. You did the same thing on the microscope talk page, you weren't there to imorove the article, you disagreed with Wikipedia's no original research policy, you didn't understand the technical literature you read and you posted walls of rambling, repetitive, incomprehensible text. If you're topic banned on Buddhism articles, you will go elsewhere for discussions, but not for improving articles, then you'll disagree with a minor point of Wikipedia policy and drown other editors in walls of rambling text about your opinions, your beliefs, and your original research. --2601:648:8503:4467:CC4:FFC7:3087:F815 (talk) 01:40, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

::: Please note - this is the "flamefest" starting ip editor mentioned here: "Thanks for remaining calm despite continual provocation by the IP editor who was fanning a flamefest at Talk:Microscope. I'm just leaving this note here so that you can see that someone noticed :-] " [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ARobert_C._Walker&type=revision&diff=775699510&oldid=775175716] Robert Walker (talk) 02:00, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

::::Have you finished refactoring this post, yet?[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AAdministrators%27_noticeboard%2FIncidents&type=revision&diff=778755225&oldid=778755089][https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=next&oldid=778755225] --2601:648:8503:4467:CC4:FFC7:3087:F815 (talk) 02:21, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

{{od}}I didn't compose that one in the sandbox because it was so short, then I needed to add the quote. It's a learning curve. This is the first post since I started using the sandbox where I posted as two edits instead of one. I'd just like to add - I am an editor in good standing with many articles to my name. I am often involved in discussions here. Here are some examples of many recent discussions: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Modern_Mars_habitability] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Present_day_Mars_habitability_analogue_environments_on_Earth] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Regular_diatonic_tuning] - in the last one both me and Hucbald found that we liked writing and reading long posts - they were carefully written, scholarly and full of important details. When I need to be short I can be short too. In all my many years on wikipedia I've never had anyone complain of my verbosity anywhere except in these Buddhism topic area discussions. And since my verbosity does seem to be a problem to other editors in this particular topic area - and probably indeed because I get quite worked up about it, at times, which you can perhaps understand when you see that articles are misrepresenting your faith (as I see it). When I get het up like that I get verbose, and I don't notice it has happened until it is too late unless I get a reminder that is really clear. I notice eventually but not right away. That's why I offer to voluntarily restrict myself to, say, one post a day. I think this will end the problem. Please don't take these posts to this ANI as examples as obviously I need to defend myself here and I haven't started on any such voluntary restriction yet. I can if that is the consensus here. Robert Walker (talk) 03:20, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

{{re|Robertinventor}} No one is talking about banning you from discussing your own biography in contexts where it would not be inappropriate on Wikipedia. You are still allowed say you are a Buddhist on your user space (as long as you don't mention English Wikipedia's coverage of Buddhism or your prior disputes with other users in this area), and mention it casually in Wikipedia discussions that aren't about Wikipedia's coverage of Buddhist topics. I was in a similar situation to you last year, but there's no need to go into that. The ban would only prevent you from editing or discussing our articles on Buddhist topics. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 23:58, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

: Oh that's good to know and thanks for sharing your own experiences and clarifications. Robert Walker (talk) 00:35, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

Well it looks as if you are going to topic ban me again. Perhaps there is nothing I can do but do let me just try to post some words in my defense, and maybe some other editors here will have another perspective on it? {{yo|Robert McClenon}} You brought up several things at once, the length of my posts, the refactoring of them, the number of them. In answer to those points:

• {{yo|Softlavender}}'s suggestion to use the sandbox will deal with the refactoring problem completely.

• It will also deal with the second one also to a large extent as often my editing of my posts is to deal with verbosity - you will notice that edited posts are often shorter - so if I do them in my sandbox I can reduce the length considerably.

You also say that I was warned before this But out of five times that {{yo|Joshua Jonathan}} and now {{yo|Ms Sarah Welch}} have taken me to WP:ANI, they have never tried a friendly resolution. Why not test me to see if I am one of those tendentious editors, by first posting to my talk page: "you are being too verbose, please take a wikibreak, or slow down".

It is easier to be succint when the editors you are talking to are also concise. {{yo|Joshua Jonathan}}'s very post about my walls of text on the RSN was a wall of text [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=777949957] of 7,817 bytes. He does many replies that are thousands of bytes long including this reply to my short summary of the issues on the 4NT article: [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AFour_Noble_Truths&type=revision&diff=775802752&oldid=775300924]. Also, many of those bullet points are short questions that require me to provide detailed evidence in response.

The central issue here is simple to state. I wish to add a POV tag to four articles on Buddhism in wikipedia, Karma in Buddhism, Four Noble Truths, Anatta, and Nirvana on the basis that they do not present the views of the world faith of sutra tradition Buddhism which has over 200 million followers outside China (and a similar number in China), see Buddhism by country. I think their views on their own faith needs to be presented somewhere in wikipedia, either in the same article as the views of western academics or in separate articles for their views as a WP:SUBPOV. The opposing editors claim that western academic sources are preferred as they give a "distance" and are not coloured by our faith[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AReliable_sources%2FNoticeboard&type=revision&diff=778105556&oldid=778104488].

I can't expect you to know which of the many authors on Therevadan Buddhism are regarded as WP:RS, but can you not see that amongst a world faith with hundreds of millions of adherents and many countries that are almost entirely Buddhist such as Thailand, Cambodia, Sri Lanka, Bhutan etc - that there must be some well regarded Buddhist scholars that could be used as sources for their own beliefs? Walpola Rahula and Prayudh Payutto are amongst the best regarded eminent scholars from the Buddhist scholarly traditions of Sri Lanka and Thailand respectively, with Buddhist populations of 14 million (70% of the population) for Sri Lanka and 64 million (93%) for Thailand. If I went to the RSN and asked if the Watchtower could be used as a source for the views of Jehovah's Witnesses, there would not be any question about this as everyone knows what it is, and they know that it is the main way that Jehovah's Witnesses express their beliefs. But {{yo|Dorje108}} and myself are the only ones in the discussions so far from this world faith of hundreds of millions of Buddhists, and both of us say the articles are POV. The 2014 versions of the articles show that there are many well regarded WP:RS sources within the sutra traditions themselves, and these articles were in a mature state for many years before {{yo|Joshua Jonathan}}'s rewrite of them to the western academic Buddhism POV. I used colour coding here to show how the new lede relies almost entirely on the western academic sources Colour Coded Four Noble Truths.

One of the most central points is that in Four Noble Truths it explains in the lede that Buddha realized cessation of suffering and unsatisfactoriness by first ending rebirth, so that when he died he wouldn't take rebirth again. I can understand how this may seem to make more sense to a westerner. But for sutra tradition Buddhist, they have the direction of causality here back to front. Buddha was able to say it was his last rebirth because he realized cessation and was free from Samsara already as a young man. My attempts to answer their many challenges to this, is like a Christian trying to respond to a challenge: "Christians don't believe in the resurrection of Jesus - prove it!". How can you give a short answer to that if they won't accept any of the sources that are well regarded in your faith? This is just one of the easiest to explain of numerous statements in these articles that contradict the faith of sutra tradition Buddhism, presented as an unbiased explanation of what we believe by western academics.

All I want to do is to add a POV tag, not to edit the articles. Since the neutrality itself is under dispute then as per WP:NPOVD, the first stage is to invite discussion, by adding these tags, over whether it is indeed WP:POV. And yet {{yo|Joshua Jonathan}} in the last month or so has deleted my original post to the talk page with a short summary of the issues, for which he apologized, {{yo|Ms Sarah Welch}} collapsed it, they edited my POV tag when I added it to first change the talk page entry it pointed to, then remove it, then remove the tag altogether, on the basis that my claim that the article is WP:POV is invalid - but the tag just says that its neutrality is disputed. How can a dispute over whether an article is WP:POV be resolved by one of the editors in the dispute removing the tag while the dispute is in progress? Then they took me to DRN over a POV tag, when I already said on my talk page that I don't think we can solve this by DRN. Surely the unresolved DRN by itself proves that the neutrality of these articles is disputed? And I went to the RSN as a result of the recommendation of the closing editor for the DRN. Now they take me to WP:ANI twice in a single month. They have a clear editorial interest in getting me topic banned to prevent me from adding those tags. That's the background to this action. Robert Walker (talk) 09:17, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

(Incidentally I composed this message in my sandbox as you can check easily, so saving 16 minor edits :) )

: From a friend's comments off wiki I discovered something is unclear here. If I am not topic banned, and I am permitted to do so, my plan is to add the four POV tags to the articles. I would add a very succint summary of the main issues as I see them - and my proposed solution to do two versions of each article similarly to the four SUBPOV articles on Resurrection of Jesus, and link to the colour coded two versions of the articles and any additional material in my own user space, not in the talk page. I would recommend that JJ and SW similarly present a succint summary of their views and put additional material in their user space. I would then step back and see if anyone comments. The main aim would be to get more editorial eyes on it, from readers of the articles. Maybe that can lead to a solution, and I feel we have taken it as far as we can in this discussion, and the solution has to come as a result of others, especially the sutra tradition Buddhists themselves, presenting their ideas and views on the topic. Robert Walker (talk) 10:49, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

::Robert Walker, please do not present your content dispute with JoshuaJonathan and others at ANI. This discussion is about your conduct as an editor. JimRenge (talk) 11:02, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

:::{{yo|JimRenge}}, I was responding to other editors here who referred to the content dispute as part of their reason for the topic ban[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=778279889]. Robert Walker (talk) 15:12, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

:::: Forgot to put in the diffs, so here again: Here {{yo|Joshua Jonathan}} deleted my original post to the talk page with a short summary of the issues[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Four_Noble_Truths&diff=prev&oldid=774196842], {{yo|Ms Sarah Welch}} collapsed it[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AFour_Noble_Truths&type=revision&diff=774450790&oldid=774405938], then after I added my POV tag pointing to this list of issues, [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Four_Noble_Truths&type=revision&diff=776411529&oldid=776183891] they edited it so it doesn't point to any section in the talk page, then removed the tag altogether[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Four_Noble_Truths&type=revision&diff=776509097&oldid=776502439] while the neutrality was still disputed. Then they take me to DRN because I objected to them removing a POV tag! And now want me topic banned, which of course will prevent me from adding any POV tags. Robert Walker (talk) 15:38, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Four_Noble_Truths&type=revision&diff=778947953&oldid=467057389 here] is the diff from just before Joshua Jonathan's first edit back in December 2011, to now. Looking at the [https://tools.wmflabs.org/xtools/wikihistory/wh.php?page_title=Four_Noble_Truths editing stats], Joshua Jonathan has made 922 edits; the next highest has 369 and the next, 90. Robertinventor has made... 2.

The Talk page is a different story. Looking at the [https://tools.wmflabs.org/sigma/articleinfo.py?page=Talk:Four_Noble_Truths&server=enwiki revision stats], going in order, Robertinventor has made 815 edits and added 1048 KB; Joshua Jonathan has made 352 edits and added 451 KB, and Ms Sarah Welch has made 76 edits and added 43 KB. Jytdog (talk) 06:55, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

:{{re|Jytdog}} If I'm reading you correctly, you are pointing out that Robertinventor talks a whole lot on the talk page while never contributing to the article itself. You are most certainly right (hence why we are here), but your methodology is a little flawed as it fails to take into account the sheer verboseness of Robertinventor's talk page posts (artificially inflating the number of bytes he has added) and the number of times he edits his own talk page comments (artificially inflating his number of edits). It's a given that Robertinventor is verbose and has a tendency to tweak his edits -- again, that's part of why we are here. I think a much more intellectually honest method (and frankly not all that much harder, depending on your browser and device) would be to Ctrl+F each editor's signature on the talk page and archives. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 07:33, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

::Scratch that. I [https://tools.wmflabs.org/xtools/topedits/?lang=en&wiki=wikipedia&user=Robertinventor&namespace=0 checked], and now I think a much stronger point (though one you don't appear to be trying to make) is that Robertinventor hardly ever edits articles related to Buddhism, period. His most-edited article that is clearly within this topic is Karma, which is #24 on his list of articles by number of edits. Next is History of Tibet at #43, followed by Pāli Canon at #50. These top three combined account for a total of 31 edits, and I can't find any other "Buddhism-related" article he has edited more than 3 times. A TBAN won't prevent him from editing articles on topics he is interested in, so this is cut-and-dry. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 07:41, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

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{{atop| Jvm21 has been blocked a week with tpa revoked.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 22:41, 7 May 2017 (UTC) (non-admin closure)}}

This editor was recently brought to ANI with regards to them creating articles that don't meet the notability requirements of WP:NMOTORSPORT, and to a lesser degree, their continued personal attacks. The outcome of that ANI thread (from only 10 days ago), was a note dropped on their talkpage by Neil. Since then, several more articles have been proded , with Jvm21 notified on their talkpage with User:GoldenRing dropping a polite note not to continue with the creation of these n/n articles. This provoked this reply from Jvm21 on GR's talkpage ([https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AGoldenRing&type=revision&diff=778872694&oldid=777610340 diff]). Since then, Jvm21 continues to ignore other editors and the notability guidelines and creates more non-notable articles. This again provkes a [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ACorvus_tristis&type=revision&diff=779161942&oldid=779139770 personal attack] to the editor proding the article (User:Corvus tristis).

Their talkpage, constant personal attacks and failure to engage with other editors and/or projects to address the concerns tells me this editor is WP:NOTHERE and continues with their disruption. I'd be grateful if someone could take a look. Thanks. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 14:21, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

• Comment - I would have first suggested a provision that requires Jvm to go through AfR from now on but the personal attacks and blatant refusal to adhere to advice and policy makes me guess it will not go well. A block probably is the only way to get to an editor like this.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 14:41, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
• Blocked for a week. Their previous comments, which I have linked in the block notice, are clearly not acceptable. The persistent creation of non-notable racing driver BLPs is a secondary issue - if they cannot play nicely with others, this is not the place for them. Black Kite (talk) 15:41, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

::Thanks BK. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 16:28, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

:::And after [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AJvm21&type=revision&diff=779206566&oldid=779199095 this response], I've revoked talk page access for the duration of the block. I'm generally of the opinion that allowing a blocked editor a little leeway to vent on their talk page can be a good thing. But this seems like a long-term characteristic rather than a temporary over-reaction, and as it's only for a week I think it would help them stop digging deeper. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 17:30, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

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{{archive top|OverBlood indefinitely PC1 protected. Thryduulf (talk) 10:52, 8 May 2017 (UTC)}}

I've been dealing with an article that has been the target of an ongoing vandalism campaign since January 2011. There was a lot of vandalism in January and February of 2011 and then there were a variety of tools used to curb it (I personally filed 3 RFPP requests, but we've also tried edit filters and pending changes protections). The result is that now the vandalism takes place only once or twice every several months. The vandal edits are very obvious and always nearly identical, replacing the name of the protagonist of the fictional work with a dick joke name (the main consistency is that the word "wiener" - sometimes misspelled by the vandal as "weiner" - must be part of the new joke name), so it's clear that this is one person/group and that the goal is disruptive rather than good-faith or POV-based. But as easy as it is to identify and to revert, I really don't want to spend the rest of my life cleaning up this nonsense. After more than a half-decade of this, I've finally reached the point where I have to face up to the possibility that this vandal may be dedicated (or obsessed) enough to keep up this campaign for much longer if needed. And if that's true then I don't see any solution other than very lengthy or indefinite (semi-)protection.

I know there is a natural reluctance for admins to use lengthy or indefinite page protections, and I've learned to be wary of filing at RFPP for anything less than egregious high-level ongoing vandalism (I've been given the old "not enough recent disruptive activity" far too many times). So I'm asking for advice instead of just filing for protection. Might there be another option out there? How can we address this? Thanks in advance for any advice. -Thibbs (talk) 15:25, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

• It is helpful if you link the article. You could ask for indef PC2 or semi at WP:RFPP. If it has gone on this long, it warrants it. Had you linked the article, I might have already done it here. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 16:57, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
• You mean PC1, right? AFAICT, PC2 has effectively been deprecated... A long-term PC1 would definitely a good way to go in this case IMO. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 17:10, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
• (ec) Just noting that they retired PC2 last January and the policy was updated.
   — Berean Hunter (talk) 17:11, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
• I meant 1, thank you. PC isn't something I use very often, but it seems to fit here as an indef since it is a long term troll. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 17:15, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

• As a PCR I prefer you give it 30/500 (not used enough) or semi. d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 17:14, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

• {{ping|Dennis Brown}} - OverBlood. The last act of vandalism is the last edit to the article. You can review the article history and talk page for additional context. Evidence of earlier page protections will be found on the "Overblood" redirect (the article's old name). -Thibbs (talk) 17:18, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
• My tools are in the shop, but this pretty ripe for PC1. It isn't an article that you would expect people to edit a lot and a disproportionate number of the edits over the years have been vandalism. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 17:22, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
• Thanks, everyone. -Thibbs (talk) 17:47, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
• PC1 was enabled, but I might have just gone with long-term semi-protection. Constructive IP edits seem unlikely – the only constructive edit to this article in three years was a tweak to the infobox. If you do a Google search for "Weinerless Steve", it turns out it's some YouTube channel. The various IP editors are probably fans adding some dumb meme or in-joke to the article. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 20:12, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
• This is the standard for PC (or long term semi) now? Three vandalism edits in five months? --NeilN ^{talk to me} 21:25, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
• This seems like a long-term issue with the page. I beleive PC is pretty much fine. —JJBers 21:27, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

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{{archive top|result= Editors are allowed to use their user space liberally, as long as it is Wikipedia related and doesn't violate policy. In this case, it does not. Canvassing is a narrowly defined problem, and doesn't apply when asking others to help you put together a proposal. This isn't a free license to publish *anything* in a sandbox but sources, content and neutral discussion are certainly acceptable. WP:IDONTLIKEIT is not a valid reason to delete. I've restored and suggest people simply unwatch his pages. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 11:08, 8 May 2017 (UTC)}}

Recently, {{userlinks|Filiprino}} opened a discussion at Talk:Linux#GNU/Linux is the name of the operating system. Linux is the name of the kernel on the subject of a perennial proposal to rename the article. This long-standing consensus is documented at MOS:LINUX. As might be expected, the discussion went nowhere, and I closed it once it became clear further discussion there would not be productive.

Since then, this user has been trying to canvass for their position on both [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Filiprino/sandbox&action=history their userpage] and [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Filiprino/sandbox&action=history a userspace sandbox]. At least one other user ({{user|Ahunt}}) expressed similar concerns here. The user also, knowing that consensus is against usage of the term "GNU/Linux" (as per MOS:LINUX), [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=POSIX&diff=next&oldid=779223484 insists on the opposite].

To me, this overall suggests a pattern of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT and failure to drop the WP:STICK. I'm disengaging from further reverts in their userspace in order to not poke the WP:BEAR any more than I need to.--Jasper Deng (talk) 21:48, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

:Agree: This use of user pages is inappropriate. User pages are not to be used as a soapbox for personal crusades and especially not against longstanding consensus. Recommend deleting both pages and warning the user. - Ahunt (talk) 21:52, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

• Agree that there seems to be a problem, but not so much due to the user page stuff. If it was just their user page and personal sandbox, I'd gladly ignore that as just a little expression of alternative opinion and dissent. The user page stuff, on its own, does not really cross any important hard lines for me (as long as it remains free of attacks, copyright, commercial promotion, and similar hard line issues). Unfortunately, it's not just the user page, it's the ongoing gratuitous abuse of deceased equines in article space, with what appears to be wilful disregard for MOS:LINUX and community consensus. Even if he was correct about the common name, his approach to it is unreasonably disruptive and WP:POINTy. Coming hot on the heels of the discussion on Talk:Linux, I see the edits to POSIX as the real issue here and a strong sign of intent to not allow horses to rest in peace. Murph9000 (talk) 22:40, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
• Disagree. The very same three editors writing here are deleting my user page edits in coordination. They have kidnapped my user page with no legit reason. On top of that they talk about discussions and edits in articles which have nothing to do with my user page. They have been reverting and deleting my user page content and sandbox the whole day. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Filiprino (talk • contribs) 22:44, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
• :You may wish to amend that. I have not touched your user pages, and have no intention of touching them if I can avoid doing so. I really don't care if you use them to express dissent with current policies and guidelines or make your case for a change, but that's just me (others obviously do care, and I'm not disagreeing with them). On the other hand, if they crossed a hard line for me, I would probably take action. Right now, my concerns are entirely due to your conduct directly related to article space. Murph9000 (talk) 22:51, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

::: I am not touching any article pages, yet you three are editing my user pages like if was the inquisition. Totally out of context. Filiprino (talk) 22:55, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

::::You're still trying to push your point in the sandbox. —JJBers 22:56, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

::::{{ping|Filiprino}} For one, you were editing POSIX, as I linked above. Also, your userspace is being edited because it's not appropriate to WP:CANVASS for your viewpoint. You don't WP:OWN them.--Jasper Deng (talk) 22:58, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

:::::I am not canvassing anything. Stop saying that because it is a lie. Filiprino (talk) 23:00, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

::::::Then why are you [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Filiprino/sandbox&diff=prev&oldid=779262657 including language to that effect]? For example, the language "Edit the article to be less biased towards OSI/Linux Foundation terms." seems to be a direct suggestion to edit the articles into the way you want them to be.

::::::: Oh, so it is the way I want the articles to be? That is your belief. Maybe we should remove the POSIX webpage because POSIX term was coined by Richard M. Stallman? What is the frontier of POV and not POV? What is bias and what not? There is nothing supporting your point more than a bunch of raw web search numbers. And now you are trying to bring here a discussion belonging to a Wikipedia article. Good job. Filiprino (talk) 23:12, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

::::::Please, stop reverting others' edits. Again, you do not have the right to act like you own your userpage or sandbox, and you most certainly aren't allowed to have anything not compliant with Wikipedia policy on them.--Jasper Deng (talk) 23:04, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

::::::: I have no content against Wikipedia policy. Filiprino (talk) 23:13, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

• Agree The user is clearly using the sandbox for obvious soapboxing reasons. —JJBers 22:57, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

::: I am not pushing anything. I am jotting down sources and notes. Filiprino (talk) 22:58, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

• After looking at the sandbox, I don't see the problem. They have compiled a list of references and information regarding how Linux "should" be named GNU/Linux. This isn't polemic, and arguably, this is related to improving the encyclopedia as it is directly related to nothing but article content. This is what user space is for. I suggest others leave the sandbox alone and allow him to compile all the material he wants. In the end, I don't think he will change anyone's mind about the title, but as this isn't interfering with the article, I fail to see any justification in silencing him in his own space, where we have always been generous in giving editors leeway as long as the activity is Wikipedia related. This most certainly is. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 23:02, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
• {{ping|Dennis Brown}} At the time I wrote this, [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Filiprino/sandbox&diff=779246860&oldid=779235807 the version at hand] had the language "If anyone feels he can provide better arguments or more evidence for the voting, feel free to link it on your user/talk page or in my talk page." which he has (thankfully) removed.--Jasper Deng (talk) 23:06, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
• That's a weak argument for "canvassing". Looking for like minded people isn't necessarily canvassing, or else Wikiprojects would be against policy. There isn't an ongoing vote anyway. If he is contacting people during a vote, then yes, that would be sanctionable. My main point is we aren't going to censor someone just because they have a minority view, or for compiling sources and information that supports that view. Doing so would be offensive in a open, collaborative environment. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 23:12, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

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{{atop|(non-admin closure) Account {{tq|lost}} by NeilN. d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 14:01, 8 May 2017 (UTC) }}

{{userlinks|Tell the truth wiki}} Please can someone lose this account, thanks.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 07:31, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

:Blocked. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 08:04, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

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{{archive top|1=Editor may have used misguided humor in that barnstar but consensus is they do not qualify as WP:NOTHERE since they have been a productive editor. The user may have been attempting to save face as suggested by {{u|MelanieN}}. There is no admin action to take here. -- Dane ^talk 18:10, 8 May 2017 (UTC)}}

Editor was checkuser blocked by Bbb23 on 25 October 2015 for sockpuppetry (SPI), was unblocked on 14 April 2016 by Vanjagenije as a WP:LASTCHANCE. [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log/block&page=User%3ACookieMonster755] Editor filed an RfA yesterday [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_adminship/CookieMonster755] which was SNOW closed. Today on my talk page there's this from the editor: [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Beyond_My_Ken&diff=779317454&oldid=779133812]

The Surreal Barnstar is awarded to any user who adds "special flavor" to the community by acting as a sort of wildcard. Thanks for your oppose, and I'm not being sarcastic. I'm glad you noted my trolling, but that's not what I would describe as "trolling" but more as a clever recipe for humor. After all, I was running as a "surprise party" candidate for adminship. That doesn't sound too serious. Thanks for the laugh mate! Face-grin.svg cheers! CookieMonster755 𝚨-𝛀 06:09, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

:It's fairly overt trolling, yes, but the user's [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?limit=50&title=Special%3AContributions&contribs=user&target=CookieMonster755&namespace=0&associated=1&tagfilter=&year=2017&month=-1 article-space contribs] suggest they do more here than just make fun. Warning them that the community doesn't always take kindly to mockery of RfA is probably the best approach here. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 13:37, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

::Suggestion this editor seems to be < 18. Maybe mentoring would be the best way to deal with this issue. I haven't looked too deeply into this, but perhaps a ban from Wikipedia: namespace would be appropriate, also. Patient Zero^talk 13:57, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

The user just got kicked all over the map at their poorly conceived RfA. Surely that's enough for them to deal with in one day! My hunch is that it was a serious request, later described as a joke for face-saving reasons - but serious or joke I think they've been, as the saying goes, "punished enough". And NOTHERE does not apply, they have been a constructive editor for several years. I recommend closing this report ASAP, without action. --MelanieN (talk) 14:17, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

:::Hmm, I'm beginning to think you may be right. I wouldn't have thought about that (with regards to claiming the RFA was a joke) - I don't think NOTHERE applies at all, and like I said, the editor is clearly under 18. Another young editor recently created problems at RFA for seemingly humorous purposes, and I can't remember if they were mentored - but maybe that would be ideal. Patient Zero^talk 14:25, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

• IMO user is HERE. 6000 edits and a few years of contributions (i've reviewed some) looks OK to me. The RfA was ill conceived but not really their fault: they have more than 6 months XP and 5000 edits, which is the closest "official" pre-reqs there are, before delving into user criteria. He should have taken the Poll, but that too is optional and the whole process is messed up and there are some suspect ES, but as a Wiki-clown myself I can't really object to those. d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 15:33, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

:As one of the administrators who dealt with Cookiemonster when they were new and disruptive, I'd prefer to cut them some slack. Despite being young, they've improved greatly since their unblock and while the RFA was a bad idea, they are on the whole helpful and we should be patient. Acroterion (talk) 15:58, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

• If we're not seeing any disruptive behaviour in or near article space (and apparently plenty of constructive / HERE behaviour), and only have a (kindest possible interpretation) WP:NOTNOW RfA and a single barnstar that was probably misplaced or misjudged humour, is there really a problem to solve? Surely this isn't something that merits sanctions after a long constructive period following a LASTCHANCE. It seems to me that this is overall fairly minor, and everyone should just move on from it (maybe with some truly gentle words of advice for CookieMonster, a trout at worst). Would anything beyond that be preventative or punitive? When we give a LASTCHANCE, as time passes with constructive contributions (and not repeating the original problems), we really need to progressively let the past remain in the past (otherwise they have a permanent noose tied tightly around their neck, which does not seem right). Obviously, significant or serious recidivism does need to be dealt with, but this incident does not really seem like that to me. Murph9000 (talk) 16:00, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

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{{archive top|result=There's clearly no OUTING going on here, and whilst Two Hearted River might be best not to use edit summaries such as the one that was revision-deleted, the threats of blocks from other editors are way out of the ballpark. Don't do that to well-intentioned editors, please. Black Kite (talk) 22:23, 8 May 2017 (UTC)}}

Can an admin suppress the edit summary [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Two_Hearted_River&diff=prev&oldid=779381731 here], as it includes personal information on another user? The edit itself is good (and in fact was reverting the vandalism of the user whose personal information was revealed) and should not be suppressed if possible. Thanks. Smartyllama (talk) 15:48, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

:For the record: anyone can look up the physical location of an IP address, so I highly doubt that would be considered personally identifiable information. ([https://www.iplocation.net/ this] is a very commonly used site that does exactly that.) ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 15:53, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

:P.S. Check your diff; you linked to the diff of you warning the editor. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 15:53, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

::{{re|Smartyllama}} You forgot the ANI notice on the editors talk page, I'll add it in right now.
Anyways, how I don't see how bad it is, that it needs to be suppressed. —JJBers 16:09, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

:::Edit summary has been suppressed. While yes, an IP can be geolocated, that's starting to go down the road of WP:OUTING a bit much. RickinBaltimore (talk) 16:11, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

::::Ok, the user's contributions are clearly outing this IP. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Two_Hearted_River This isn't good]. —JJBers 16:22, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

• People editing as IPs automatically expose at least some of their geolocation info, and even personal data. In some cases, they expose their full name, home address, and telephone number (e.g. people who have a personal static netblock from an ISP which fully reports sub-allocations to the registries or in rwhois). People who want to be properly anonymous (in terms of real world info) need to edit as a registered account rather than an IP. That information is automatically searched / linked at the bottom of IP contribs pages. Murph9000 (talk) 16:16, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
• If the summary is only giving information about an IP address, information that is already available from their edits and the IP addy being traceable using any search engine, I don't see this is outing as none of that information is personal. No IP address info can be "personal" because it is too general. If you really want to be anonymous, get an account, as an IP address is always going to tell us where you are. IP tracking links are a part of Wikipedia code itself. Just go to any IP talk page and click WHOIS at the bottom. Looks like he is trying to undo subtle IP vandalism that often gets overlooked, ie: changing stats without sources just to make Wikipedia incorrect. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 16:40, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
• :In some cases, public info associated with an IP can legally be personal data. I believe EU courts have ruled that to be the case (largely for static IPs and netblocks). In the case of Wikipedia, they are given fair warning that the personal data (if present) will be published, so it can be personal just isn't expected to be kept private in this case. Murph9000 (talk) 17:13, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
• {{ec}}I'm sorry, but if it's "starting to go down the road of WP:OUTING a bit much" to repeat information which is directly linked on the editor's contributions page then why haven't we banded together to get these links removed from IP contrib pages? Seriously, editing under a username is how one edits anonymously. I believe {{u|Two Hearted River}} is attempting to do counter vandalism work in good faith, though it seems like they might be edging close to harassment by focusing on this particular IP. The edit summaries might very well be them justifying their reverts; not an attempt to draw scrutiny to an individual. I can see some complaints here (nothing a lil fishy couldn't fix, though), but the claim of outing doesn't hold up to any real scrutiny. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 16:42, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
• Per all of the above, this isn't even CLOSE to outing. Repeating the text of a link listed on every IP address contributions page is not WP:OUTING by any means. Users are informed if they want to remain anonymous, they should register an account. One doesn't even need to leave Wikipedia to research the geolocation data of an IP address. Repeating such data is not outing. No. --Jayron32 16:46, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
• The user seemed to revert every single edit with this edit summary. I can see that as some form of harassment. —JJBers 16:49, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
• The edit summary lists both the IP's university and his hometown, where he is now apparently. You could not gather all that information from one IP address. Either the IP traces to their hometown, or it traces to their school, depending on where they are. And they wouldn't be linked necessarily. Smartyllama (talk) 16:55, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
• It looks to me like the other editor is assuming the different IPs are the same editor and so saying the editor who formerly edited under this IP and geolocation is now editing under this IP and geolocation. I haven't look into the edits so I don't vouch for the correctness of the assumption but if the only info used to make this determination was the info here, I don't see how it can be outing since it's something we do all the time. Not just for IPs but for accounts to. In fact, while checkusers will never connect an IP to an account, there's nothing stopping us connecting an IP to an account by the similarity of their edits. Linking accounts solely by their edits here is something that's accepted practice. The only info which techically didn't come from wikipedia that I can see is the geolocation data for the IPs, but as others have said, for better or worse that isn't considered outing. Nil Einne (talk) 18:53, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
• That's exactly what I'm doing. One IP address has vandalized a set of college hockey team articles in a very specific way, and those edits occurred in late December 2016 and early May 2017. In between, a range of IP addresses from a university 125 miles away has repeatedly vandalized the same set of articles in the same way. I believe it's one person doing all this vandalism: a college student who vandalizes from his parents' residence during semester breaks. I'm only interested in linking the accounts (to stop the vandalism sooner), not identifying the person. Two Hearted River (paddle / fish) 21:16, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
• As for reverting every edit: Did any of those edits have merit? Sources? Credibility? No? Perhaps they were vandalism, which is exactly what they look like. Changing a minor stat in a ton of articles is one form of vandalism. Two Hearted River was fighting vandalism and simply pointing out the location. Following a vandal is not harassment. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 17:06, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
• Look at the history of, say, [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Northern_Michigan_Wildcats_men%27s_ice_hockey&action=history Northern Michigan Wildcats men's ice hockey] - clearly there is one individual who has been vandalizing these articles for at least a month. I don't see much more going on than a standard duck test. Parsecboy (talk) 17:29, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
• {{u|Dennis Brown}} if this is a persistent IP vandal who has been making the same edit (or the same type of edit) in all of those reverts, then I agree that a barnstar might be more appropriate than a trout. Notice that I couched my claims in "if" statements and sprinkled it with "might" qualifiers. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 18:57, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

{{ab}}

{{Clear}}

{{atop|(non-admin closure) Disappeared. d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 22:09, 8 May 2017 (UTC) }}

Posting here, as I don't rate the chances of a {{tlx|copyvio-revdel}} tag surviving on the sandbox. Special:Diff/779426032 needs a copyvio-revdel (https://www.ixl.com/math/grade-7). User already blocked as vandalism-only. Thanks. Murph9000 (talk) 21:16, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

:All done {{p}} thanks for the report! -- There'sNoTime ^{(to explain)} 21:18, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

{{abot}}

{{Clear}}

Could any admin take necessary measures to prevent further edit warring? ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 06:04, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

:{{Done}} by El C. d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 15:06, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

{{Clear}}

{{atop|(non-admin closure) Given stern warnings by Diannaa. d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 15:09, 9 May 2017 (UTC)}}

Multiple copyright violations on S. M. Imamul Huq by {{Userlinks|Tariqul.bu.ap}} despite repeated warnings. David.moreno72 08:28, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

:{{Done}}

{{abot}}

{{anchor|SiTrew at RfD}}

{{archive top| result = I've followed this thread throughout, and it's clear from today's development's on Si Trew's talk page that this needs to be addressed now. I'm cribbing a bit of the language from the proposed close.

• User:Si Trew is indefinitely banned from Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion and all RfD-related pages, subpages and activities, broadly construed, and from nominating redirects for speedy deletion. This topic ban does not cover refining a redirect to point to a section of the page it already pointed to, nor does it cover other redirect-related edits such as tagging.
• The three-week NPA block is endorsed.
• At this time, no consensus exists for an indefinite block or a site ban. However, if Si Trew continues to cause disruption or violates his topic ban, one or both of these two options is likely to follow.

- Katie^talk 12:50, 9 May 2017 (UTC) }}

user:SimonTrew has been flooding RfD with up to 70 nominations a day (see any RfD log page in the last week, or from shortly before Christmas. e.g. all-but a handful of the 74 nominations at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2017 April 20 are by Si Trew), in almost all cases without having done even the most basic of WP:BEFORE checks to see whether they should be deleted or not, and ignoring feedback about what consititutes a good redirect regarding WP:DIACRITICS. [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ASimonTrew&type=revision&diff=777295923&oldid=777295471] is a good illustration of the mentality - trying to nomiante as many redirects as possible in as short a time as possible, regardless of the disruption it causes.

I have asked him on his talk page to slow down on several occasions, e.g. User talk:SimonTrew#Relax in December and user talk:SimonTrew#Please slow down today. He's been instructed to do basic WP:BEFORE on multiple occasions, but has repeatedly refused to do so sating that "it's not my business" (see user talk:Thryduulf#Slow down for example).

Examples of problematic nominations: Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2017 April 21#64 Oozumo, Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion#Log/2017 April 22#Marten Trotzigs Graend, Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2017 April 20#Keflavikurflugvoellur and many others.

It's also worth noting that my intention to bring this here was described as "bullying" [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:SimonTrew&diff=prev&oldid=777295471] [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:SimonTrew&diff=prev&oldid=777296378] [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:SimonTrew&diff=prev&oldid=777296947].

What I'm seeking is either a full topic ban from RfD or a limit of 20 nominations per day, each demonstrating that WP:BEFORE has been carried out. I will be linking to this discussion at Wikipedia talk:Redirects for discussion. Thryduulf (talk) 10:48, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

::That is simply not true. I time my nominations very carefully, actually. I am on different time zones from other regulars at RfD. User:Thryduulf does not own RfD, but seems to think he does and wants to bully me because of "other contributors". I have a good memory. User:Champion, who hardly ever contributed, came back this morning and bunged in a few. Several new editors I have encouraged to contribute. Because of this admin bully, User:Thryduulf, we will never get anything done. I have said at my talk page, you are not the only admin. User:Tavix got nominated and became admin mainly because of his work at RfD. There is no requirement for this bully admin to come to RfD. It is purely voluntary. "Flooding" is a joke. I split list 11 into chunks and got through 5000 of them listing about 50, that is 1% of what was on that list. I probably rcatted about the same amount and the other 90% were fine as they were. Sheesh, flooding. I am not a bot. I find this nomination absolutely ridiculous from an admin who pops his head around the door, finds he has work to do, then lists me at ANI. Don't do it, go and contribute somewhere else. Why are you an admin? I dunno. I thought to do that kind of work.

:::As for doing basic "WP:BEFORE". I cannot do that. The User:Eubot redirects the redirects the articles are not going to have RS are they, they are redirects. I don't care whether the article has RS but whether the redirect makes sense. I sift through the language redirects and go keep, delete, RfD. I took another route earlier today to just nominate the redirects at CSD to see what happened. Would be easier. Certianly easier than arguing with a bully admin who has to do a bit of work as an admin. Shouldn't be an admin then. And try to get my name right. Si Trew or Simon Trew. Not SiTrew. I am not some kind of meme. Si Trew (talk) 11:04, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

:::I counted 8 personal attacks in this post alone. 2600:1017:B021:5EB5:995B:EC9D:49E5:E6F3 (talk) 13:14, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

::The example "problematic nominations" are still open for discussion. That is why I bloody well brought them there because I was not sure. The first is Finnish but a bit iffy, in English Wikipedia, the second is still open but the speedy keep is by this involved admin User::Thryduulf. That's ff--- WP:INVOLVED if I ever saw it. Si Trew (talk) 11:08, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

:{{ec}}Actually, most of the redirects ST has nominated range from the ridiculous to the actively misleading, and I wish they could be deleted without having to go through RfD. (As a fairly seasoned editor I don't question the need for due process, these are just my personal reactions as a professional linguist and a Scandinavian. (Then again, as a Scandinavian, I was brought up in a very consensus based culture, so...)) Anyway, the underlying problem seems to be that there is not enough participation in the RfD discussions so I should put my money where my mouth is and try to participate more. --bonadea contributions talk 11:09, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

::Consensus is for Germanic ones to be kept, including Scandinavian. I listed a couple yesterday for A, Sweden and O, Sweden I think. You may have an opinion on those. All I can do is sort and go that's all right that's a bit iffy that needs a delete. I'm just the card dealer not the players. Si Trew (talk) 11:14, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

::As a counterexample, I put Wikipedia:Redirects_for_discussion/Log/2017_April_26&action=edit§ion=6 this in saying "Ladies ang Gentlemen this is the kind of thing I keep". Good job I did. Nothing wrong with it. Just some bully admins seem to think I am trying to harm this project. Si Trew (talk) 11:21, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

::Just because I don't say I haven't done WP:BEFORE does not mean I have not done it. Do you want my listing to be sesquipedalien? I am wordy enough as it is. Take WP:Redirects_for_discussion/Log/2017_April_22#Kestal.2FGoeltepe for example. Did you think I did not try to find that WP:BEFORE I listed it? Fucking ridiculous ANI by Thryduulf. Just because he can't be bothered to work doesn't mean others can't. Should have his admin stripes taken off him. YOU DO NOT OWN WIKIPEDIA. Si Trew (talk) 11:25, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

:::{{ec}} Consensus is that the German and Scandinavian ö → oe (and ä → ae, etc) redirects should always be kept (but you still nominate them, e.g. Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2017 April 22#Schwyzerduetsch), not that ones that are not ones which are not German or Scandinavian should always be deleted. For almost all of the Turkish redirects you've nominated I've found uses in sources indpendent of Wikipedia that demonstrate that transliteration is used, which is a reason to keep them. This is the sort of thing you should be finding before nominating, not relying on other people to find for you. It wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't nearly a full-time job keeping up with your nominations - hence the request for a rate limit. Thryduulf (talk) 11:30, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

::::{{ec}} Si Trew the point I'm trying to make is that I'm putting in literally hours of work (e.g. on 24 April I worked on RfD from 12:44-14:07, 14:45-15:05, 17:43-17:53, and 21:37-22:31 dealing solely with the nominations made on 19th April (almost all by you), I then worked until 23:35 on 20 April nominations (see Special:Contributions/Thryduulf, all times UTC). Thryduulf (talk) 11:37, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

:::::And how many hours of work do you think I put in to make the encylopeadia better? How many? Two? I have to go that's OK, that's iffy, that's a delete. We don't have an WP:X1 concession. "Three years" in your words, I will get it done in ten days, promise, if you let me, but I must flood RfD and I haven't time to do WP:RS, and RS doesn't apply to redirects anyway, I have to go keep, delete, iffy. Si Trew (talk) 11:39, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

::::::So I don't even get to state my own defence, it seems.

::::::Take this little beauty for example, 15_fevrier_1839. What are you going to do with that. It's a French date that has the accents knocked off but it is not an Engish date. What are you going to do with it? Hmm? It isn't 15 February. What are you going to do with it? You're the admin, you know better than me, you bully. I would list it at RfD, but do what you want with it. Si Trew (talk) 11:48, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

:::::::Taking three years without flooding RfD is much better than 10 days of flooding RfD. My opinions on redirects have nothing to do with my being an admin. As for 15 fevrier 1839 that's an obvious keep per WP:DIACRITCS as it's the original title of the film without diacritics. Thryduulf (talk) 11:59, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

:::::::Its the title of the film without diacritics. Its common for non-native language speakers to search for a foreign language title without diacritics for the simple reason they may not be able to actually type the diacritics without difficulty. Nor may they be able to actually translate the title into whatever language they speak. It not being an English date has nothing to do with it. Only in death does duty end (talk) 12:18, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

:I don't have a problem with Si Trew nominating a huge number of redirects per day. Many of the redirects he nominates are genuinely bad, and he's doing valuable work bringing them to RfD. But... Si Trew, if you stopped including several paragraphs of unrelated, barely related or repetitive text in so many discussions, that would save you enough time that you could have a deeper look into (and deeper think about) every redirect you nominate without slowing you down any overall.
Also, Thryduulf is not a bully; on the contrary, he's probably the single most valuable editor in RfD's history, and pretty much everybody else on RfD gets along with him spiffingly.
Also, {{diff||diff=777290224|oldid=777289991|label=this}} is pointy and you really shouldn't do things like that. And please stop nominating redirects that are identical to an obviously good redirect except for the straight lack of diacritics, unless really special circumstances apply; redirects like that are kept 99% of the time (like 15 fevrier 1839 would be), and nominating them just creates needless overhead. Sideways713 (talk) 12:27, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

• {{ec}} Support throttling restriction of max. 20 nominations per day, per Thryduulf's suggestion, and further that SimonTrew must carry out the most basic of checks when nominating these redirects and make a sensible argument that discussion of the redirect on its own is required, and not mass-nominating redirects for the sole reason that they were created by a particular user or bot. Many of the nominations he's made since I've been back hanging around RfD in the last week or so have been somewhere between not well researched (e.g. Vikor) to completely obviously not necessary (e.g. Correao, Impact de Montreal) to basically nonsense (JZ series 664). These include one he nominated while arguing in the nomination statement that it should be kept (i.e. he acknowledged it did not need to be nominated at all but did so anyway, making administrative work for no reason). These nominations are disruptive to other editors at RfD, but the problem truly is that Si is completely shut down to any criticism of his actions, doubling down as he has here with angry attacks any time anybody attempts to address this situation and further insisting that his way is both the right way and the only way. You can't participate in a collaborative project if you are not open to collaboration, as Si is regrettably demonstrating. Nevertheless, some of the multitude of Si's nominations do result in redirects being modified, however the signal-to-noise ratio on these is exceptionally poor. If Si can learn to nominate only the ones that need nominating, we'll do much better at RfD. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 12:49, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

::In any case and I have not read Ivanvector's comments, redirects are usually open for "about seven days". Says at the top of RfD. There is no great hurry for a bullying editor to spend five minutes to close them. Some of them may want comment from other editors. Si Trew (talk) 13:39, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

:::Never mind. Your reliable sources probably lead back to the shite Eubot created if you look a bit closer. And as usual I'm the one being accused of being the arsehole here. Now, as for asides, I put them in on purpose to try to lighten the load, bring a little humour in because I know it is a burden. Still, just fuck off. Get someone else to do your hard work. Give me a fucking three year ban cos I have had enough of this shit. Si Trew (talk) 13:43, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

::None so deaf as those who can't hear. There are far more newcomers and others that contribute to RfD than when I went on a break in January, from me listing these Eubots. Yes, I do a song-and-dance act. Sometimes I am even quite witty. Sometimes it's not your kind of humour. You have on your hands just today a professional translator who says "I should contribute more to RfD" and I said on I think her maybe his talk page. Don't bother. Go to WP:PNT. You won't be thanked for it. What kind of recommendation is that for the fucking nonsense at RfD. Fucking nonsense. I am trying to get a job done. If you don't like it, do the other thing. I don't mind R's being retargeted, that is exactly why I bring them to RfD when I say I am not sure. that is how we make the encylopaedia better. Now, when I say it should be kept, I would just keep it but it is another way of saying I am not really sure, I should like others' opinions on this. What else am I to do? Si Trew (talk) 13:53, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

:::When numerous editors in good standing have problems with the way you do things, you need to accept that it is likely you who are the problem. Blaming everyone else for having a problem with the way you do it is unproductive. You can either keep doing it the way you do and keep being brought to noticeboards (this is what, the 3rd, 4th time in as many months?) until everyone gets tired of it, or actually do what people ask you to do. Without the unnecessary attempts at wit and humour - no one is here to stroke your ego. Only in death does duty end (talk) 14:01, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

• Support ban from RfD, striking my earlier comment. Today Si's nominations include Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2017 April 26#Gyergyocsomafalva, a redirect to Ciumani, a commune in Romania (formerly Hungary) which is named Gyergyócsomafalva in Hungarian. tl;dr: this is another straight {{tl|R from diacritics}}, he just keeps listing them after being asked by many editors now to stop. Instead, he called this "nonsense" and actually created a template just to illustrate this point, which someone (not me) is now going to have to delete. It's this bullshit that is the problem. It's not the first time Si has created pages just to make some point, usually directed at someone who has expressed concern with his behaviour. Admins can see his work at Ladies and gentelman I should like to annouce, a page he created so that he could embed an announcement of some Neelix-redirect-related milestone in an RfD thread. This is well past WP:IDHT and into WP:CIR territory. I would have blocked Si myself for his latest "fuck off" and "fucking nonsense" comments just now, but I am WP:INVOLVED, and while editing this I've struck out my bolded "from RfD" a number of times. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 14:19, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

:::You are just taking the piss. If you think "Gyergoscsomgalva" means something in Hungarian or English, tell me what it is. Please. I should be glad to hear it. It is not a straight R from dias it is WP:RFD#D5 nonsense. I was quite proud that we had got through half of the eubot redirects I thought everyone at RfD should be proud of that. I also created {{tlx|R from nonsense}} to put the rest of the fucking thirty thousand into. I don't see any barnstars coming my way yet. Si Trew (talk) 15:13, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

::::The article itself Ciumani says in the first line it is Gyergyócsomafalva in Hungarian, the redirect you nominated Gyergyocsomafalva is identical without diacritics. It is not 'nonsense'. Now you either have not read any of the information about redirects regarding diacritics which people have told you about repeatedly, or you didnt actually look at the article Ciumani which would be a massive failure of BEFORE. Only in death does duty end (talk) 15:26, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

:::::There's no way he looks at the articles before he nominates them. As an example, he nominated Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2017 April 25#Bogus Linda with some nonsense rationale, referring to the subject with feminine pronouns. Literally a 5 second glance at the target article would be all you need to find out that Linda is, in fact, male. -- Tavix ^(talk) 15:46, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

• Sigh, yes if I wasn't involved I'd have blocked him for those completely unnecessary expletives too. I hadn't looked in detail at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2016 May 20#Ladies and gentelman I should like to annouce before just now, but it was exceedingly pointy and DuncanHill's recommendation to block Si for disruption is looking sadly more necessary with every example brought here. Thryduulf (talk) 14:49, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
• Support ban from RfD As of today, the user is still being uncivil making personal attacks against bots in the log, here's an example:
  {{tq|I am FED UP WITH THAT BOT THINKING IT KNOWS ABOUT LANGUAGE. Hippos is Greek for horse as in hippopotamus, river horse, hippodrome, and so on. Then give it a sugar lump, horse likes a sugar lump, that makes a horse hyppy. Then a birdie comes on its rump and it goes neigh or jae. Just.... please.... kill it... now... please. Si Trew (talk) 4:44 am, Today (UTC-4)}}
  Even though it seems to have support for deletion, this is unneeded for the RfD board. —JJBers 15:03, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

::I was notified of an "Officially notified incident at RfD". Administrator User:Thryduulf puts in in his own words a lot of time at RfD and the two things he nomintated he specifically put his hands in at RfD. The clean hands doctrine only applies in real life does it. I have no idea what User::JJbers is saying, because he or her is never at RfD. Si Trew (talk) 15:10, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

:::{{re|SimonTrew}} I was citing a RfD you made earlier today, here is it for reference. —JJBers 15:15, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

:::The title of the section on Si Trew's talk page where I placed the required {{temp|ANI-notice}} template is user talk:SimonTrew#Formal notification of ANI thread (the template doesn't provide a standard section heading). I don't understand what the rest of the comment is trying to say. Thryduulf (talk) 15:13, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

• Support ban from RfD at minimum. Frankly, I'd be inclined to indef and throw away the key unless a spectacularly good explanation was forthcoming for [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3ARedirects_for_discussion%2FLog%2F2017_April_26&type=revision&diff=777287452&oldid=777287293 "I have a feeling the author of Eubot was Jewish."], and I have a strong suspicion that topic-banning SimonTrew from one area will just cause him to go be disruptive elsewhere. However, since there seems to be agreement between those who deal with him the most that the problems are primarily RfD-related, hopefully separating him from the area that's causing the most problems will allow him to do something useful in an area that won't provide a venue for his inappropriate attempts at comedy. The comparisons between Neelix and Eubot isn't valid; Neelix's edits were (in part) actively inappropriate and needed to be cleared up as soon as possible, whereas some of Eubot's redirects may be invalid, but aren't actually causing any harm, so there's no urgent need to rush through them that that would give SimonTrew any kind of "on urgent work" exemption from Wikipedia's usual written and unwritten rules on disruption and basic courtesy. ‑ Iridescent 15:20, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
• If he does turn to disruption elsewhere then that would lead to a block. Hopefully it wont be necessary, but the spirit of WP:ROPE applies here I think, and his methods are wrong and the results significantly less successful than desired he is intending to improve the encyclopaedia so I think he should be given a chance to do that elsewhere first. Thryduulf (talk) 15:33, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
• {{reply to|Iridescent}} I believe "I have a feeling the author of Eubot was Jewish" was stated because the bot created redirects related to Judaism. Neelix presumably created redirects related to Christianity. I don't think it was meant whatsoever in an antisemitic manner based on having read many comments by SimonTrew regarding a wide variety of topics at redirects for discussion over the past couple of years. — Godsy ^(TALK_CONT) 10:24, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
• Support RfD ban. Competence is required, and I'm afraid SimonTrew just doesn't have it. The egregious violations of WP:BEFORE, the nonsensical ramblings that don't pertain to the discussion at hand, the uncivil behavior every time someone tries to reason with him, and the sheer amount of work that RfD regulars have to put in to clean up after him is frankly exhausting. It's at the point where it's simply not worth it anymore. I'd bring in more examples, but I'm busy IRL at the moment. I'll just say that I endorse Ivanvector's analysis wholeheartedly. -- Tavix ^(talk) 15:35, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

::Striking "RfD" and recommending full ban per {{tq| Just fucking ban me. Just do it. Not from RfD. From all of of it.}} -- Tavix ^(talk) 17:48, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

• Support ban from RFD: Instead of hearing the criticisms and using them to change their behavior, the user is doubling down and being quite uncivil in the process. I have no opinion on the length of the ban. --Darth Mike^(talk) 16:21, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
• As another data point on the WP:CIR and creating needless work fronts, Admin's can see the deleted history of Olivia stecker where Si Trew [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Undelete&target=Olivia+stecker×tamp=20170411010609&diff=prev endorsed his own PROD], then after the page had been deleted [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Undelete&target=Olivia+stecker×tamp=20170411010433&diff=prev recreated the page] with a commentary about something (I'm not really too sure what) before nominating it for speedy deletion under criterion WP:CSD#A9 which didn't apply (any of WP:CSD#G7, WP:CSD#A1 or WP:CSD#A3 would have though), the original article was in the scope of WP:CSD#A7 subject-matter wise but not content-wise. Thryduulf (talk) 16:36, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

:::If you want to restrict it to twenty a day, then get a WP:X1 concession. The consensus of the community was that we didn't need one. You can hardly then stick it on me that I list things. What else am I supposed to do? I dunno, shove it up an already WP:INVOLVED admin or what? Tell me what else can I do with them. Where else can I send them. Tell me. Si Trew (talk) 17:03, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

:::Doubling down. What do you expect me to do do. I am taking personal attacks about making the encyclopaedia better. How would you like it? Doubling down. Just fucking ban me. Just do it. Not from RfD. From all of of it. Then at least I know where I stand. Si Trew (talk) 17:05, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

:::And as for JJBeers remark, since I can't seem to reply to them individually. You may have seen straight after that "I am fed up with the bot. I am not fed up with the person. I can be fed up with the bot because it is a bot." or words like that. You do your WP:BEFORE on it. Si Trew (talk) 17:08, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

::::{{re|SimonTrew}} I wasn't pointing out the redirect you nominated, but the content of the nomination, which shows you made personal attacks to a bot, which still violates that policy. —JJBers 17:12, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

:::::not that i condone SimonTrew's behavior, but one can't make personal attacks against something that's not in any way a person. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 17:14, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

::::::{{replyto|Writ Keeper}} I disagree. Any personal attack of a bot is in effect a personal attack of its operator. It's not at all conducive to a good editing atmosphere, and so I don't see why it should be tollerated at all. Thryduulf (talk) 17:21, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

:::::::{{reply|Thrydulf}} It's effectively very much not. If any thing, it is criticism of the edits (the work the bot does) than the editor (the creator of the bot). {{u|Writ Keeper}} is absolutely right. — O Fortuna ^{semper crescis, aut decrescis} 13:42, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

:::::::It's kind of a moot point, since as I said, I don't condone SiTrew's behavior regardless of whether it's a PA or not (which is why I put it in the small tags). But I would argue that a bot is the work of its author in much the same way that a Wikipedia article is the work of its author; if criticizing a bot transitively criticized its author, then I would argue that implies that criticizing someone's edits or articles also transitively criticizes that person. Which of course is contra the whole idea of NPA: to comment on the contributions, not the contributor. I'd argue that a bot is an extension of the author's contributions, not an extension of the author themself. Granted, in this case, the criticism was not at all constructive or civil, and thus it's totally reasonable to call SiTrew out on it, and even sanction them for it. I just wouldn't do so in the name of NPA; in my mind, NPA is a fairly bright line, and I wouldn't want to see it eroded in the way that civility has. Maybe just me, though. I don't mind continuing this conversation if you'd like, but perhaps it should be elsewhere, since it's not really germane to this discussion? Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 17:31, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

::::::::I don't have time now, but I'll think about your points and if I want to continue discussing it, I'll find somewhere more appropriate (WT:NPA perhaps) and ping you as I agree it's not really the best place here. Thryduulf (talk) 17:47, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

:::::::::[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3ARedirects_for_discussion%2FLog%2F2017_April_26&type=revision&diff=777287452&oldid=777287293 This] is pretty clearly a comment directed at the creator of the bot. Is it an attack? Depends on context I suppose, but consider the rest of the comment is comparing the bot's behaviour to the "sins" of another editor. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 18:13, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

:::I'll argue against you. You may have noticed I have never mentioned the nbot author's history but I did some WP:BEFORE and had made a total of fifteen edits mostly minor before this bot was allowed to run. I don't have the problem with the author (retired) nor the bot. That is a sorry state of affairs in 2008 that after a test run of 14-- yes, 14-- successful edits it was then allowed out to wreak havoc. Now, you don't see me naming names. I can have a go at User:Eubot because it is a bot, that is like kicking a kitchen cupboard when you've cut your thumb. It is not like kicking your wife when you've cut your thumb. I am not just allowed but I think entitled to moan about Eubot because I am the one editor here on Wikipedia that is actually methodically trogging through these things. Look at my contribution history today. I must have rtagged and rcatted at least twentyfive as keepers. Of course the ones at RfD are going to cause trouble. I do have a braim in my head. The admin who brought this here is WP:INVOLVED so it surprises me to see making further comments. Si Trew (talk) 17:57, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

I can be pissed off with the bot but I am not pissed off with he or she. They did what they thought right. That is what we all have to do. Sometimes we get it wrong. But that doesn't make you a bad person. I can have a go at the bot because it has no feelings. I would have a pint with the person who created them and say what were you thinking of? You're wrong but you're not bad. The creator only made about fifty edits. Dutch it seems from the name. Well, someone has to clear up the shit. Still, I would have a pint. I am never angry with a person. I am only angry with what they do. Those are different things

::::{{ec}} {{replyto|SimonTrew}} We're not complaining that you are listing things. We are complaining that you are not taking enough care with your nominations, which combined with the volume of your nominations is causing significant disruption. I'm not at all sure what the lack of an X1 concession (which I would agree is not needed, as the proportion of bad redirects is so small and there is no urgency) has to do with anything. As for "doubling down" what we would like you to do is to listen to the complaints that people have about your actions and change your behaviour accordingly. Instead what you have done is made personal attacks while carrying on doing exactly the same thing people are complaining about. Thryduulf (talk) 17:19, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

::::You're WP:INVOLVED, User:Thryduulf. You were the one spouting off at RfD and you're WP:INVOLVED. clean hands doctrine please. Stand off. Si Trew (talk) 17:57, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

:::::That's not how it works, SimonTrew. INVOLVED is a policy that relates to administrative actions, i.e. actions that involve the actual use of admin tools--it would only apply to Thryduulf if they were actually going to block you or something. It doesn't apply to everything an admin does, just because they're an admin. Bringing an issue up on ANI, and continuing to discuss it, does not involve the use of admin tools, and so INVOLVED doesn't apply. We're neither the police nor the court system, and the clean hands doctrine isn't Wikipedia policy. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 18:03, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

• Ban/block/trout for taking redirects way too seriously. Honestly, if these Eubot redirects are [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Eubot&diff=774819538&oldid=672536889 causing you so much stress], go do something else. The encyclopedia is not going to implode because of some silly redirects. clpo13_(talk) 18:41, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

::NO it wont ({{ec}} I don't give a shit about Wikipedia's [kangaroo court system. I am being treated unfairly. I worked not "five minutes" like the prosecutors says but hours and hours and hours over these fucking things. I sometimes can't remember what language I speak. I have worked so damned hard over them that sometimes I literally can't tell left from right. Then I am told to do WP:BEFORE. I take it as implicit that I do it. What am I supposed to fucking do, list every eubot redirect as "WP:BEFORE I listed this I checked on Google and could not find anything, and it is still WP:RFD#D5 nonsense". In any case, as I have said many times, WP:BEFORE does not apply to redirects it applies to articles. I have no requirement to do WP:BEFORE at all. I have a requirement, in my head, to make the encylopaedia better by making it easier for people to get to the information they want. Not pissing about at ANI by an editor who has a grudge against me. Now, shall I get on to try to make the encylopaedia better are all you all little admins going to waste more of my precious editor's time? Si Trew (talk) 18:48, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

:::Are you going to stop wasting peoples time with RFD's that are obviously pointless and where you have done zero checks to see if it is a valid redirect? Only in death does duty end (talk) 18:50, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

:::If your time is so precious, why are you wasting it on increasingly pseudolegalistic arguments defending a practice every other editor commenting here has cautioned you about? Why not use some of that precious time editing in one of the literally thousands of other areas? Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 19:01, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

:::They're not pseudolegal. I am one of the very few editors I imagine who has actually stood up in court and said yes your honour and no your worship. I know that this is WP:NOTLAW. It is not a kangaroo court either. Si Trew (talk) 19:07, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

:::I also do actually find its slightly offensive that User::Thryduulf even in listing here could not be bothered to get my name right. Si Trew (talk) 19:02, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

• Support RfD throttling - I don't care about redirects really, as long as they redirect to an appropriate target I'm happy. What I do care about is people creating extra work for Wikipedia editors - who are, after all, volunteers, not paid for our time - especially when they're told that they're creating extra work and they pig-headedly refuse to cooperate. Redirects are like the bits of a building between two walls, or between the ceiling and the floorboards of the room above - there's a lot of crap in there but it really isn't worth worrying about. Exemplo347 (talk) 19:31, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

:::Thryduulf is not the only admin at RfD. Other admins such as User:Tavix have got their adminship from RfD. Thryduulf don't own the shop. The accusations of bullying still hold. I think it is just a simple case of bullying. "I'm an admin do as I say, love, Thryduulf". Well, some people stand up to bullies. Now, let me see how many things Thryduulf has listed in his adminship at RfD.... er.... sorry I don't have a finger to count 0. Si Trew (talk) 19:49, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

:::::I care about exactly what you care about User:Exemplo347. This is a storm in a teapot. And it's a bit ridiculous to suggest throttling it to 20 a day. I am the only editor doing it. I don't see anyone else doing it. There are spits and spats but I go through the lists because we don't have, by amazing consensus, a WP:X1 concession. The very admin who is now nominating me said it was not needed. I forget the greek word but in English it is, um what is the word, when you say one thing and do another. I better check on Wiktionary. I could have got on and done some real work and made the encylopaediae better were it not for this fuss. I will try to start doing that right now. It is the last I have to say on the matter. Si Trew (talk) 19:49, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

• Support ban from RfD The combination of WP:IDHT and many very questionable RfD's seems to require that. Nothing short of a ban will seem to stop him. I wish there was another way.... -Obsidi (talk) 20:06, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
• I have blocked SimonTrew for 31 hours for [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AThryduulf&type=revision&diff=777372793&oldid=777295123 this new set of personal attacks], notwithstanding INVOLVED. If you would like, please discuss this block at AN. This block is not intended to conclude this discussion. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 20:15, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

::Wow, 31 hours is lenient given the block log. That being said, I think this is further evidence that a full ban is necessary, given this took place outside of RfD. -- Tavix ^(talk) 20:26, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

:::I'm not sure a full site ban is necessary over those personal attacks, but he might need more than a 31 hour block. You might even want an indef block until he at least says he understands the problem with this behavior and that he wont repeat it. -Obsidi (talk) 20:39, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

• Support ban from RfD Sigh, maybe he will find something better to do with his time. Only in death does duty end (talk) 20:56, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
• Support ban from RfD - Frankly, I agree with the comment above that, given this editor's stance he's likely to move to another area and cause similar problems there, so an indef or site ban would be justified, but since we don't do preventative blocks of that nature (but probably should), we can start where the immediate problem lies, as shown by both ST's editing behavior and his comments in this very discussion. Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:25, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

{{od}} I believe we have enough people in support of a topic ban that we can implement it at this point. Thoughts? —JJBers 21:32, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

• note I've renamed the tread and changed all instances of "SiTrew" in my comments to "Si Trew" per his comments above and on my talk page. I have not changed any other comments. Thryduulf (talk) 21:36, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
• I won't bold vote an opinion, because I don't frequent RFD and don't have a good feel for this. I just want to ask a question to the RFD regulars who know him better than drive-by ANI watchers. Si Trew has been here 10 years and made 61,000 edits, much of it redirect related. Surely most of them valuable? Instead of an RFD ban (or a site ban), would it make sense to narrow the scope? Perhaps a 2 week ban from RFD until he calms down? Or a ban from nominating Eubot redirects? It depends on whether he's generally a help at RFD but is getting overwhelmed by the scope of Eubot's contribs, or if he's generally not a help. I get the sense that he's generally a help (I see {{ping|Thryduulf}} saying nice things on his talk page from December, and I recall {{ping|Tavix}} being pretty patient during a previous dispute because he does do good work). But it looks like when he gets a bee in his bonnet, he becomes difficult for others to work with. Maybe focus more on getting the bee out of his bonnet? --Floquenbeam (talk) 21:41, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

::Simply put, Simon is a net-negative at RfD. Sure, he's got a lot of contributions, but it seems like every other one is an off topic rant, remark or what have you. I'll admit I've got a very long leash, but I feel it's been completely used up. The current flavor of the day is Eubot, before it was Neelix, and his obsession with Neelix didn't end until a months long block. I'm sure if it's restricted to Eubot, he'll find another situation to flood RfD with. This is, what, the seventh or eighth ANI thread dealing with Simon? At what point will we realize that he simply doesn't have enough clue to operate as a competent editor on this site? -- Tavix ^(talk) 22:02, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

:::Fair enough; I've blocked him more than anyone, so I'm not trying to be his Official Apologist or anything. Just seems a bit of a shame, after being complimented for his Eubot work a few months ago. Perhaps it's my knee-jerk reaction to people talking about a 10-year editor as clueless and incompetent. I do know what you mean, it just seems... a shame, like I said. I won't try to oppose anything here. --Floquenbeam (talk) 22:07, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

::::A few years ago there weren't many problems with him though. They've gotten significantly worse as the years go on. It's like he's degenerating or something. -- Tavix ^(talk) 22:32, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

:::::Possibly. I know I'm degenerating. Getting old kind of sucks (Speaking for myself, not Si Trew). --Floquenbeam (talk) 22:35, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

::::::Amen to that. -- Tavix ^(talk) 22:39, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

::{{ec|2}} Currently the negatives (which have been increasing) significantly outweigh the positives (which have been decreasing). If he is to return to RfD it must be with a rate throttle, a demonstrated understanding of the point of WP:BEFORE and a requirement to demonstrate he has carefully thought about each redirect nominated. A restriction from redirects related to foreign languages, diacritics and/or mass-created redirects would be the minimum necessary before I'd consider his return. At the start of this thread I would have accepted just the throttle, but it's become clearer the more others have commented that the level of competence displayed has been worse than I was initially aware of. Thryduulf (talk) 22:12, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

• Full site ban, somewhat regrettably. In a nutshell, I agree with the ultimate conclusion Tavix made; if SimonTrew's gotten to a point where he's requesting a full site ban on himself, let's just do it. I recall in the past, SimonTrew was indefinitely blocked for legal threats, in addition to all the other RfD-related blocks he's had. At this point, as much as SimonTrew has been cordial (and the opposite) to me in the past, it's quite difficult to see how he's still a WP:NETPOSITIVE for the project with his recent serious lack of WP:BEFORE research on his recent nominations, plus his off-topic comments on RfD nominations are getting to a point where they are now throwing red herrings into the discussions. In addition, with SimonTrew's editing style and personality, I don't see how he could follow a "daily-limit" ban, and editors' daily monitoring of such activity from SimonTrew would be rather exhausting. In my conclusion, at the present time, SimonTrew's capability to provide beneficial additions to Wikipedia is nearly nonexistent, and he and the entire community need a break from his contributions. Steel1943 (talk) 22:51, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
• :In addition, I think WP:ROPE was referenced in regards to only banning SimonTrew from WP:RFD and not all of Wikipedia. My response to that idea: SimonTrew honestly has been provided "WP:ROPE" so many times now that the rope has been destroyed. The amount of editor resources it takes to reel him back in after any of his tangents, whether they contain malice or not, is too taxing on editors and admins. (I mean, legal threats and RfD are two exclusively-different issues.) This really shouldn't be allowed again ... since, at this point, the rope is figuratively broken. Steel1943 (talk) 23:00, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

:::I'm not a fan of "community bans" and in this case, I wonder if it is truly necessary. The proposal for a restriction on their editing in a problematic area is nearing a consensus and they are currently blocked for incivility and personal attacks. If they return and continue then there appears to be ample behavioral and policy grounds for extending new blocks of longer lengths, including indefinite, at admin discretion. Creating a site ban adds a layer of punitiveness that seems unhelpful and non-constructive. It is also harder to undo a community site ban. I recognize that the difficulty in removing a community site ban strikes some as a feature instead of a bug. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 23:32, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

::::I'm not a fan of site bans either, but given the extent of what SimonTrew has done in regards to legal threats, bombastic off-topic outbursts and the addition of flooding RfD with nominations that lack WP:BEFORE research, I truly think that it is the best option in this case. I've been following SimonTrew's activity for about 4 years now, so I'm not making claim that he needs a full site ban without any knowledge of some hard evidence to back it up. Looking back on SimonTrew's block log, the indefinite block that he had for legal threats lasted for about 3 months (June 2016–September 2016) and after that was lifted, here we are at yet another issue created by SimonTrew that needs immediate attention and requires an ANI discussion. All of these back-and-forth issues are really becoming taxing for the community. And given the fact that SimonTrew is familiar with how to go through the venues to request getting unblocked when he doesn't have talk page access (such as WP:UTRS), and since he had to go through that since his talk page access was revoked during that time, he'd have to go through it again to get the ban lifted with the stipulation that lifting a ban takes more than lifting a block, possibly including consensus to lift the ban. Seriously, if I thought at this point just banning SimonTrew from RfD would prevent any further issues he may cause, such as legal threats, I'd be all for it. But at this point, it's almost like he's already used up any chances he had to redeem himself after all of these issues, especially with his mannerisms of interacting with others on Wikipedia. Steel1943 (talk) 23:53, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

:::::You have obviously more familiarity with this editor than I. I hardly ever go to RfD, for example. I will humbly defer to your greater expertise on the issue. The only community site ban I have had previous familiarity with was SlitherioFan2016, who was banned for obvious and repeated trolling and block-evasion [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=772208154&oldid=772207882]. I didn't think this editor has raised anything like the trouble that one did, so I expressed caution. Especially since, as Softlavender says, they are currently unable to reply it seemed proper to wait until the current block expired to see if it has any benefit. Perhaps, though, they have reached that level of disruption that simple WP:CIR or WP:NOTHERE indefinite blocks are not sufficient. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 00:29, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

::::::While I would support a WP:CIR block (I'm still thinking about whether I support a ban), a WP:NOTHERE block is not justified. Si Trew is attempting to improve the encyclopaedia, and I think believes that he is doing so with his RfD nominations - indeed some of them are beneficial (just not enough to be a net positive, at least at the moment). The problem is with the results of his actions, and refusal to act on feedback about them, that are the issue not his intent. Thryduulf (talk) 01:24, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

• Comment: I'm inclined to recommend waiting until {{U|SimonTrew}}'s short block has expired before any admin closes this thread. I'd like to see whether at this point he understands the problematical nature of his behaviors, and what he intends to do (or not do) to correct that. If he is unable to do (respond to) those two things satisfactorily, well, then there is indeed a WP:CIR issue and measures should be taken in accordance with an admin's assessment of the consensus in this thread and the nature of the overall problem(s). Softlavender (talk) 23:35, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
• COmment Y'all know I hate incivility, so I am more than displeased with an [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&oldid=777361760 edit summary like this.] If Si can't behave around others without resorting to rudeness, PA, and incivility, they shouldn't do work that requries them to work with others, who may have a differing opinion. L3X1 (distant write) 01:42, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

Od Mishehu has extended Simon's block (based on the discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#INVOLVED block of User:SimonTrew) to 3 weeks so that it now expires at 20:06, 18 May 2017. That is a very long time for a thread to be open at AN/I and I'd rather this not get archived without an actual conclusion, whether that is for a topic ban, indef block, ban, some combination of these or nothing. Personally I would like to see a topic ban from RfD (defined below) and nominating redirects for speedy deletion appealable separately to an appeal of a block or ban at least 3-6 months of productive collaborative editing elsewhere (at which either a conditional or unrestricted return could be discussed). I'm inclined, and to say that the three-week block is sufficient for the personal attacks yesterday. I don't know if it's been done before, but a suspended community ban that could be implemented by agreement of 2-3 uninvolved administrators in the event of his being blocked for disruption, legal threats, etc. is something I think worth considering. I'm not sure whether breach of the topic ban should be a trigger for such ban or not, but I'm leaning yes as it's an area that is quite easy to define (unlike say "Pseudoscience").

I would consider at topic ban from RfD to encompass:

:*Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion and it's talk page

:*Subpages of Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion and their talk pages

:*Any templates with names starting "RfD" (in any capitalisation)

:*Any redirect currently (i.e. at the time of the edit) tagged as nominated at RfD, and the talk page of any such redirect.

Thryduulf (talk) 10:10, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

:I support that definition pretty much. —JJBers 13:07, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

::{{yo|JJBers}} I moved your comment here. Your edit [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=777484912&oldid=777484803 here] has oddly duplicated the entire thread. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 13:30, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

:::Great, the visual source editor is broken. —JJBers 13:42, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

• I too would not like to see Simon blocked indefinitely. His passion for improving the encyclopedia is obvious, he is just unable at this point to accept that his enthusiasm for redirects is seriously impeding other editors who would also like to improve the encyclopedia, to the point that he needs to have a community-imposed break from that venue. I have seen no evidence that his disruptive behaviour here would carry over to other areas of the encyclopedia. As for the ban from RfD, I would like to see it defined as a ban from all redirect deletion, broadly construed. This would include RfD itself and all its subpages and templates, tagging redirects for deletion (speedy or otherwise), and discussing speedy deletion criteria related to redirects. I'm not sure what {{ul|Thryduulf}} means by the discussion of a "suspended community ban": topic ban violations are normally addressed by blocking. I think it's already pretty clear that Simon's next block for a civility concern (NPA, NLT, etc) will be indefinite. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 13:26, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

::Also, where are these "lists" of Eubot redirects? I've not been able to find them. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 13:26, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

:::User:Champion/Eubot list. Sideways713 (talk) 13:47, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

• Rather clear definition ... but will probably be breached at some point. Per my comments regarding implementing a full site ban on SimonTrew, given his history of blocks and actions, my ability to have confidence that such a ban will be followed is, unfortunately, very low. As I stated above that my opinion that SimonTrew should have a full site ban is "somewhat regrettably", it's because as Thryduulf and Ivanvector have alluded, he really is performing all of the edits on RfD in good faith and belief that he is making improvements to Wikipedia. However, the actions he takes following most edits he performs at RfD causes commotion that results in blocks (such as legal threats). If a RfD ban is the route that we are going to take (which I say is rather lenient at this point), then due to his history, after the first offense of breaking such a ban, the response shouldn't be a limited time or indefinite block ... it should immediately be a full site ban. Steel1943 (talk) 14:35, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
• Request for Clarification: What about existing redirects? Would Si Trew be able to change existing redirects? For example: Let's say A redirects to B; would Si Trew be permitted to change A to redirect to C? Likewise, what about tagging for speedy deletion? --Darth Mike^(talk) 18:48, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
• {{replyto|Steel1943|Ivanvector|Darth Mike}} I agree that including nominating redirects at RfD should be included in the definition of breaching a ban from RfD, I'll add it above. CSD is not part of RfD so should be specified separately, i.e. "topic banned from RFD (defined as above) and from nominating redirects at CSD". I strongly dislike "deletion of redirects" because RFD is Redirects for discussion and Si does nominate redirects there for retargetting or further input* and I don't want there to be room to wikilawyer that a nomination for retargetting was not breaching a "deletion of redirects" topic ban. Retargetting a redirect without involving RfD is not covered by the currently proposed topic ban, I had not thought about it before you mentioned it (thank you!) so I am presently unsure whether we do want to restrict him from that or not. If we do, it should be as a third bullet to the topic ban not lumping it in with the RfD bullet.
• :* This is fine when done coherently, with thought and not rapid fire - see my nomination at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2017 April 27#Foreign language redirects to Portugal (Group 3) from earlier today for how it can be done. Thryduulf (talk) 19:37, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

::*I'm pretty neutral on whether Simon should be banned from editing redirects entirely. When Si does take the time to actually analyze a redirect and its background and utility, he's usually right, or at least his action can be justified. The problem of late has been that he is not taking this time and just rapidly nominating huge lists of redirects for discussions with no apparent forethought at all, and also the outbursts when he's confronted on this. I think it would be fine to allow Si to go off and edit redirects on his own where he believes that editing them improves the encyclopedia, to the extent that he can do so without interacting with RfD. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 23:49, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

• Comment: I think {{U|Od Mishehu}}'s extension of Simon Trew's block was a mistake that did not take into account the fact that Simon Trew's input is needed (in my opinion) to fully resolve this thread. Now he cannot comment on this ANI thread. If he was able to comment, he could possibly assure us now that he understands what he has been doing that is problematical, and propose what he is going to do to change his behaviors. We could also see if he has calmed down and is refraining from personal attacks. Now that he can no longer comment here, and there are so many proposals on the table including a full site ban or indef block, I don't feel that this thread is going to wind up in as productive a resolution as it could if ST were able to comment further. Softlavender (talk) 01:18, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

::Simon can comment on his talk page if he desires, and Ivanvector has made that clear after his block was extended. -- Tavix ^(talk) 01:20, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

::: Simon has put some additional comments on his talk page which I can't copy over at the moment (my phone doesn't have enough memory). Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 10:11, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

Simon's comments from his talk page are below (copied by Thryduulf (talk) 10:45, 28 April 2017 (UTC)):

:{{ping|Ivanvector}} OK. Here is my basic position. There are thirteen lists of User:Eubot redirectd on them. Many of them, as was said yesterday at the ANI by a professional translator, a new to me editor. (who to make it clear I did not magic up like I can magic up User:Plantdrew on botanical subjects or User:Mjroots on railways).)

:It's too many. We don't have a WP:X1 concession. What am I supposed to do, take each to WP:CSD? Then we would end up in the same boat with the admins at CSD saying I am flooding them. It's too many.

:User:Champion made the lists, I am going through them. If you want WP:RFD#D5 nonsense such as {{-r|Thoekoely}} at an encyclopaedia, have it. I don't.

:My WP:BEFORE is to check the internal consistency of our encyopadia. Techinically WP:BEFORE does not apply to redirects anyway, but let's not get hung up on it like User:Thryduulf does. My job, as I see or saw it, is to go through the eubot ones and say "is this greenisholives" or is it "green olives"?". That is all I can do. Si Trew (talk) 06:40, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

::Here's my secondary position. Apart from speaking French, English, a bit of Hungarian and some other languages, more than that, I have a kinda "connecting" mind. It just makes connections all the time I wish it didn't sometimes. I just "connect" things all the time. For example right now I just remembered it was E.M. Forster who said "Only Connect" and Victoria Cohen Mitchell has a tv programme. I can do that without checking. I am that good. Si Trew (talk) 06:47, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

::Ok I got her name wrong. Alan Coren her father one of the funniest men you will ever read. See. Si Trew (talk) 06:49, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

::And as for personal attacks, the thing is that "Simon Trew" is my real name. So, yes, I do start treating it as a personal attack. I am an idiot for using my real name, I suppose, but I don't hide behind a veil. It is my stupidity nine years ago but if I switched names now what good would that do? Nobody's. As we all know, Wikipedia is not the whole world. I don't want "Simon Trew" to become a synonym for "idiot". Si Trew (talk) 08:54, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

:::Do you know how to get started with something. You just get started. In the time this ANI nonsense has gone on I have painted a new hallway and fixed my house and various other jobs, all for no money. Oh and got meself a new house which is in about the same state as these redirects are. The way to get started is to get started. I am a bit fed up nobody else seems to join in, but you can hardly blame me for flooding. Five or six other editors could join in. The fact I am doing it on my own is some testament to why people don't like to edit at WP. Si Trew (talk) 10:09, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

My initial reaction to those comments is that they show he still doesn't understand what the problem is, and if unblocked today would just return to flooding RfD with poorly checked (or unchecked) nominations and rambling off-topic commentary. Thryduulf (talk) 10:50, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

:Further comment from Si:

:"I think it would only be fair if you take out my hazardous contributsions you also take out all the {{tlx|R from other spelling}} and {{tlx|other language|fr|en}} or whatnot that I do from Eubot without bringing to RfD. Can you please copy that in too, User:Thryduulf? And I am sorry if it felt like a personal attack on you. It was not. I think you were wrong to bring it, absolutely and then go "Right, I've warned you, next time, you're at ANI" and then SMACK I am at ANI. That is not how Wikipedia works. Can you please add those comments at ANI because I can't. Si Trew (talk)" copied by Thryduulf (talk) 10:58, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

• Right so since the above is basically stream-of-conciousness irrelevant waffle, can someone put this thread out of its misery? Only in death does duty end (talk) 11:02, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

• In terms of Simon Trew's usertalk comments now copied over: Although they are no longer outright personal attacks, they are still pretty much rambling self-justifying meanderings (one kicker is "I can do that without checking. I am that good.") Regardless of whether Eubot is a problem or not (that is a subject for another conversation and probably for another venue), I'm worried that we do have a CIR problem with Simon, and that his ability even to communicate clearly, much less collaborate and learn, is somewhat questionable. Softlavender (talk) 11:29, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
• Yes, I'm increasingly now thinking we need a block or ban and a topic ban that will take effect if/when he returns. I'm obviously way too involved with this to close this thread but the topic ban (from RfD and from nominating for redirects for speedy deletion) at least looks to have widespread agreement. Whether it should be a block or ban is less clear, but I'm leaning towards the latter. It's such a shame how quickly this keeps getting worse. Thryduulf (talk) 12:20, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
• Support RfD ban of indefinite length. It is clear from the comments copied from their talk page above they have not heard any of the concerns expressed and intend to continue as before as soon as they can. It is conceivable that they will, after some period of time, realize why their RfD interactions were damaging and can request dropping the ban at that time. I'm of no mind to even attempt to determine what that length of time might be, however. I think it should also be made explicitly clear that their leash on civility matters upon return from the current block is extremely short. Is "civility probation" still a thing? Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 21:05, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

:*No, it's not, Eggishorn. ArbCom has had some unpleasant experiences of what's likely to happen if an editor has a target painted on their back by a "civility probation", and it's been a long time since they tried it. The community shouldn't either. They're cursed things. Bishonen | talk 21:20, 28 April 2017 (UTC).

:::Fair enough. Sounds reasonable. Thanks for filling in the blank space in my memory. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 21:23, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

• Comment - I just want to say that I !voted above for an RfD ban, and that Simon Trew's comments copied here from his talk page have not changed my mind one bit - in fact, they've hardened my position, and have started me thinking that an even stronger sanction might be warranted. My advice to Simon Trew would be: If you want to keep editing here, stop commenting, you're only hurting yourself. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:19, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose full site ban - I cannot, regrettably, oppose a ban from redirects for discussion, but I don't think a full site ban is due at this time. — Godsy ^(TALK_CONT) 10:29, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
• I will endorse above statements above noting that Si Trew's refusal to do a WP:BEFORE check (technically not mentioned at RFD, but which definitely should be) for Eubot redirects is disruptive and a time sink. We have better things to do than perform simple Google Searches on his behalf. Unlike the Neelix redirects, which could impugn Wikipedia's reputation through having an admin redirect things like "tubular titties" to breast cancer, the Eubot redirects are mostly harmless. At worst, the transliterated redirect blocks valid DAB pages or has a better target due to changes since the bot was run. Many of them are perfectly valid redirects which Si Trew refuses to recognize because of his prescriptivist take on how redirects should work, because he seems to believe that all readers should be forced to perfectly reproduce any diacritic in the original language, which is at odds with WP:DIACRITIC. Some of the more questionable ones are at worst a redirect from a spelling which is a plausible pronunciation, and which can be deleted or kept without much harm either way. I would endorse Thryduulf's restrictions above, but also offer the following terms as suggestions:

:* A ban from nominating redirects for speedy deletion, which would circumvent the purpose of the RFD ban, and could be abused given widespread misuse of WP:G6;

:* A ban from retargeting (but not refining) redirects, Si Trew has advanced some rather implausible alternate theories for where a redirect could/should target to [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Redirects_for_discussion/Log/2017_April_6#Csaszar] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Redirects_for_discussion#Austro-Hungarian_coroana], [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Redirects_for_discussion/Log/2017_April_19#Houses_of_the_Mole];

:* An exception for Si Trew to make one RFD nomination per day, notwithstanding any other part of the ban, provided that he supplies a clear explanation for why the status quo should not be kept and URL links to demonstrate that a Google News/Books/Scholar search has been done per BEFORE. This would allow some of the good work that he does to still be done (e.g. creating a valid DAB page, adding hatnotes, created a valid DAB page). If the proposed change would be at IAR levels of obviousness, then the RFD can always be snow closed to get the correct result. Any violation of this clause will result in its removal. ---- Patar knight - ^chat/_{contributions} 07:16, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

:**Yes, I included a ban from CSD in my proposal so I obviously agree with that. I don't agree with the one nomination a day, as while he does sometimes do good work, I think he needs a complete clean break from RfD and the restriction needs to be very simple so there there is no possibility of wikilawyering, indeed I prefer the restriction suggested by someone above from editing redirects completely over your second bullet for the same reasons. Thryduulf (talk) 09:42, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

:***Fair. I would be okay with those conditions as well since the mass nomination of Eubot redirects has been pretty disruptive, but would prefer a more lenient approach at least to start.---- Patar knight - ^chat/_{contributions} 12:50, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose any indef blocks/bans, I think some Wikipedians are way too happy to swing the banhammer. From what I have seen of him prior to this incident, {{U|SimonTrew|Mr. Trew}} is constructive and intelligent. {{U|Thryduulf}}, nominating a bunch of redirects for discussion is not a reason to block or ban someone. You are acting like it is your problem, but it is not. I have not encountered him outside of RFD, so I can't say anything about CSD or the like, but to do something as crazy as to indefinitely block/ban him would be a serious loss to RfD. I don't like this turning on him I'm seeing. I thought sanctions are not supposed to be a form of punishment, but instead are to prevent further damage. Guys, I just don't think kicking Si Trew out is the effective or moral way to go.--Mr. Guye (talk) 21:57, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose any indef blocks/bans I fully endorse the comments above by Mr. Guye. Jschnur (talk) 22:07, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
• :{{ec}} I'm sorry, Mr. Guye, but I have to ask whether you've actually looked at the diffs and links provided in this thread and read his comments in response to the concerns raised and then his responses after getting blocked? This is not just "nominating a bunch of redirects at RfD" it's:
• Flooding RfD with 50-70 or more nominations a day, despite repeatedly being asked not to (WP:IDHT).
• Not conducting even the most basic elements of WP:BEFORE before nominating redirects, despite being repeatedly asked to (WP:IDHT, WP:CIR).
• Continuing to nominate redirects without actually presenting a reason to delete or retarget them, and sometimes even arguing for keeping them as is, despite being repeatedly asked to (WP:IDHT, WP:CIR).
• Repeatedly nominating redirects that are correct according to policy (particularly WP:DIACRITICS), despite being repeatedly asked to (WP:IDHT).
• Repeatedly nominating redirects that there is a firm consensus to keep (e.g. ä → ae in Germanic language names/titles), despite being repeatedly asked to (WP:IDHT). Together these mean that he is causing hours (literally) of extra work for other volunteers who have to check his work and clean up after him.
• Continuing to post off-topic rambles in RfD discussions, despite being repeatedly asked to. This and all the above are seriously disrupting RfD (WP:IDHT, WP:CIR) and has been ongoing (and getting worse) for months.
• Responding to criticism with personal attacks (WP:NPA).
• Creating article space pages to make a point or comment (WP:POINT, doubly so when the comment is being made in the wrong place).
• :Links and diffs for all of these (and more) are in this thread, and it is everybody other than you who is seeing his actions at RfD as a very significant problem, which is why I wonder if you've been actually looking at the evidence provided. The good he does in relation to redirects is being very signficantly outweighed by the negatives. I didn't want to see him indeffed and banned from RfD - I wanted a rate limit and a requirement to do WP:BEFORE for each nomination, but every response he's given has made things worse for him as he's making it increasingly clear is not willing to work collaboratively with other editors at the current time. Thryduulf (talk) 22:33, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

April 19 was a relatively quiet day for Si's nominations at RfD as there were only 48 of them (it's rare that most people make more than 5 in a single day). 7 are still open and 1 has been relisted. Of the 40 that have been closed, none were nominated for retargetting:

• 5 were withdrawn - 1 with a factually inaccurate nomination, 2 after complete failures to do WP:BEFORE were highlighted, and 2 where he replied to his own nomination with a recommendation to keep before anyone else commented.
• 8 were deleted
• 1 was retargetted
• 26 were kept (2 speedily kept because the nomination didn't actually include a reason for deletion or retargetting) - over 50%. Thryduulf (talk) 22:49, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
• :I endorse the above reply by Thryduulf. Anyone with a similar track record of ignoring WP:BEFORE at AFD would already be sanctioned. Si Trew's actions require RFD volunteers to waste hours doing simple Google searches which he could've done himself, simply so valid redirects are not deleted. Given the vast number of nominations, I would not be surprised if some redirects that should have been kept fell through the cracks and were deleted. I would add that unlike AFD, mass nominations make the main RFD page slow to load, because it transcludes all the daily logs with open entries (the default assumption is that there will not be a flood of nominations). The slow load time has been brought up at WT:RFD a couple times already. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Redirects_for_discussion#This_page_takes_too_long_to_load], [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Redirects_for_discussion#The_current_status_of_this_process]---- Patar knight - ^chat/_{contributions} 12:50, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
• ::{{yo|Mr. Guye|Jschnur}} I second this endorsement. If it were just that he was making a lot of nominations, we wouldn't be here. If it were just that he sometimes makes poor decisions with regard to nominations, we could correct that if he would ever accept criticism. But he doesn't: you can see [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:SimonTrew&diff=prev&oldid=721293860 here] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:SimonTrew&diff=prev&oldid=721295363 here] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AThryduulf&type=revision&diff=777372793&oldid=777089791 here] (or above) the sort of non sequitur response you get if you ever try to suggest that he's doing something wrong, and always he continues to do those things. This has been going on basically continuously since the Neelix redirects came to light in about November 2014, other than at times that Si has found himself blocked for things like [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ASimonTrew&type=revision&diff=723573537&oldid=723555108 one of his rambles containing an explicit legal threat]. Repeatedly doing things you've been asked not to do is disruptive, and banning him from RfD is to prevent any more of his disruption related to that venue. As an example of how this behaviour is specifically disruptive, observe [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:SimonTrew&diff=777294142&oldid=777087652 this nomination] which Si listed for no reason and then [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Redirects_for_discussion/Log/2017_April_26&diff=777270213&oldid=777269944 immediatedly withdrew], but he did not remove the notice of discussion from the redirect, breaking it. It's likely this has happened dozens or hundreds of times from his rapid and careless mass nominations, and it's likely he's creating a secondary cleanup project for the rest of us. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 16:03, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
• :::I endorse the comments of Thryduulf, Patar knight and Ivanvector above. I would only add that the problems at RfD aren't limited to Si Trew's own nominations; his off-topic ramblings have disrupted other editors' nominations, and his lack of competence and inability to take in what his fellow editors say has been on full display in discussions started by others as well. And as others said above, the big problem is that Si Trew responds to criticism by digging in deeper and descending to personal attacks and even legal threats; and that instead of learning from his mistakes, he has become more and more disruptive over time. Most regulars at RfD would be happy to tolerate (indeed, for years already, have tolerated) most of Si Trew's quirks; but it's become clearer and clearer that he's not willing to work together with other users, and that his failure to do so is causing too many problems to just ignore. No one's happy that he has to be banned, and anyone who's spent any length of time at RfD knows that he does do good stuff there. It's a pity that he can't stick to the good stuff and drop the rest; but unfortunately, he insists on drowning the baby in increasing amounts of bathwater, and his behavior has made it clear that isn't likely to change. Sideways713 (talk) 19:49, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

• So what's the bottom line here? It seems like we have a mix of (1) full topic ban from RfDs, broadly construed, to (2) an indef or site ban. Is there any perceived harm in giving Si a bit more WP:ROPE and stopping at the TBan, or are his CIR issues demonstrably too far gone to waste time on that and therefore we should skip right to indef? Asking so that this thread can be effectively understood and closed by an admin. Is this thread ready for consensus to be assessed and closed? If everyone has said their peace, there's probably no point in repeating your !vote, but if you haven't !voted, do so now as I think this thread is nearing completion. Softlavender (talk) 12:34, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
• Effectively my support is for a ban from suggesting changes to redirects, but not from making changes. That covers tagging any redirect for CSD or xfD, discussing on its talk page, or discussing anything to do with RfD anywhere, but not from modifying an existing redirect. My observation is that Si knows how redirects should work and can make good decisions, but he doesn't seem to be able to do it without "looking busy", i.e. spamming RfD with completely unnecessary discussions. If he can just go do it, fine. Until it becomes apparent that that is a problem, I don't support banning him from that activity. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 17:20, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
• In case it isn't clear from my many comments above, I think topic ban from (a) RfD (as defined above), and (b) nominating redirects at CSD is minimum. I am neutral with regards extending that topic ban to redirects more generally, and oppose a topic ban more general than that. My first choice is for a suspended indefinite ban, my second choice is an immediate indefinite ban, my distant third choice is neither of these. Most of all however I would like to see this thread actively resolved rather than idle out without formal closure. Thryduulf (talk) 00:08, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

::{{U|Thryduulf}}, can you clarify what a "suspended indefinite [topic] ban" means and entails? That said, it looks like you and Ivanvector are in agreement that Si should be able to change or modify redirects but should not discuss, RfD, or CSD them, or involve himself in any way with RfD, including discussing it. Is that correct? Softlavender (talk) 07:37, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

:::As described above as suspected ban is simply one that does not take effect immediately, but only if the topic ban is broken. And yes, you're right about my opinion of what Si should and should not be able to do regarding redirects. Thryduulf (talk) 10:07, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

::::So you are requesting a ban on RfD, broadly construed (including discussion of redirects), and a ban on CSDing redirects. And in more standard Wikipedia terminology, you are also requesting a final warning that if further disruption occurs an indefinite block or site-ban will ensue? I'm asking because "suspended ban" is not a thing, and "indefinite ban" is not a thing (although indefinite blocks, and site bans, are). Softlavender (talk) 13:13, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

:::::I suppose I am asking for a topic ban with the explicit provision that if it is breached that a site ban is the only course of action available. Thryduulf (talk) 15:12, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

:::::Actually, {{ping|Softlavender}}, there was a Arbcom case where a topic ban was placed in suspension. Look up RoslynSKP. A suspended topic ban was placed on her as a result of her behaviour in Ottoman/Turkish WWI related articles. I'll link the sanctions once I find it, unless someone does so before me. Blackmane (talk) 02:40, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

:::::Aha! Found it. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Ottoman_Empire%E2%80%93Turkey_naming_dispute#Remedies here it is]. Blackmane (talk) 02:42, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

::::::{{yo|Softlavender|Blackmane}} you might be interested in this discussion on how various sanctions are defined.

::::::As far as Thryduulf's suspended ban proposal, I support it. Reviewing this discussion led me across several examples of Si being similarly disruptive in other venues, most notably (to me) Tavix's RfA, which led to [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:SimonTrew&oldid=721936804#Requests_for_adminship this], then [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Bureaucrats%27_noticeboard&direction=prev&oldid=723159357#Wikipedia:Requests%20for%20adminship/Tavix this], then [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Tavix&oldid=723473013#Yeah.2C_congrats.2C_and_now this legal threat], and finally [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:SimonTrew&oldid=723790724#Legal%20threats this indefinite block]. While that's tangentially related to RfD in the first place, it's a real example of how Si can't let things go and crusades to the point of needing to be blocked. I think it will be evident that if Si does not abide by this serious restriction after this lengthy discussion, then he has no respect for the community and should not be a part of it. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 14:18, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

• I would support Thryduulf's suspended ban proposal for the same reasons as Ivanvector. While I would like to give him an RFD nom per day with the restrictions I listed above, I would also be okay with a complete RFD ban at this point in time, to reduce the ambiguity of the terms. ---- Patar knight - ^chat/_{contributions} 17:46, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
• I would support that as part of a phased return if he demonstrates consistent collegial editing and appropriate response to feedback in other areas of Wikipedia, but not at the current time. Thryduulf (talk) 18:39, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
• Ditto. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 18:39, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
• {{ping|Ivanvector}} I did see that RFC pop up on WP:CENT earlier and made my support known for your option 3. Blackmane (talk) 00:50, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

I think that everyone who has an opinion about this has almost certainly expressed it by now, some several times (guilty as charged) as it's been the best part of 5 days since SoftLavender started the summing up section above. So, I think it might be about time to close this - if nothing else it isn't really fair to Si to leave this unresolved for too much longer (certainly if I were in his position I'd want to know where I stand, one way or the other). Thryduulf (talk) 23:57, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

:Obviously I'm not going to close this either; but does anyone dispute this as a summary of the consensus?

:* There is consensus to indefinitely topic ban Si Trew from 1) Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion and all RfD-related pages, subpages and activities, broadly construed, and 2) nominating redirects for speedy deletion;

:* It is unclear if there is a consensus that the topic ban should cover retargetting redirects as proposed by Patar knight; this is something that could still be discussed. There is a consensus that the topic ban does not cover refining a redirect to point to a section of the page it already pointed to, nor does it cover other redirect-related edits such as tagging;

:* Consensus in a related discussion endorsed blocking Si Trew for 3 weeks due to WP:NPA violations;

:* There is no consensus for an indefinite block or a full site ban, but one of these is likely to follow if Si Trew violates his topic ban and/or causes significant disruption in other areas of Wikipedia;

:* Si Trew is, at his best, capable of contributing to RfD positively;

:* Accordingly, if he resumes editing Wikipedia after his current block and his edits in other areas consistently demonstrate an ability to respond to feedback appropriately and to edit in a collegial manner, the community is ready to review the topic ban and possibly relax or lift it;

:* There is consensus that Thryduulf is not a bully. Sideways713 (talk) 11:49, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

:**That matches my (very involved) reading of this thread. Thryduulf (talk) 16:44, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

:**Yeah, this is fair reading. If there's no consensus if retargeting redirects should be included, maybe it should include a reminder to be conscientious about redirect policy when carrying out retargets? It would still give Si latitude to fix redirects, but would serve as a deterrent to using retargets to carry out changes which might not have gained consensus at RFD. ---- Patar knight - ^chat/_{contributions} 23:57, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

:***Yes, along with noting that his actions regarding will be closely watched and will of necessity be examined as part of any appeal of the topic ban. Thryduulf (talk) 09:24, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

:****All seems accurate to me, but I have to (pedantically) point out that the community endorsed the 31-hour NPA block; the administrator who closed that review chose to lengthen the block to three weeks. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 17:46, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

Simon has this morning made [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ASimonTrew&type=revision&diff=779510362&oldid=778297036 some comments on his user talk page]. I've linked them rather than copied them as they are rather lengthy and he has not explicitly asked for them to be copied here. One of the comments relates to his mental health, another might be a 'so long, and thanks for all the fish' statement of retirement but I'm not certain, and there is much in there about other things that might or might not be relevant. Regardless, I encourage everybody to read the message and I think it adds more weight to the need to determine the consensus of this discussion and then implement it sooner rather than later. Thryduulf (talk) 10:21, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

:That Simon, almost two weeks into his latest block, keeps insisting he's the greatest thing since sliced bread and fails to acknowledge he has done anything wrong - even denying he made personal attacks - is a very bad sign. The merciful thing to do at this point would be to close this thread before he manages to make things worse for himself again. Sideways713 (talk) 11:08, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

:What is needed here is someone who knows Simon (and is not currently in conflict with him) to reach out to him to help. The level of (genuine) distress and some of the details revealed, might make it best to deal with some of this off-wiki. Yes, it would help to have this ANI thread resolved, but that is not as urgent as responding to what is happening right now (see his talk page comments). That takes priority over closing the ANI thread. Some of those posting here might try and show some human decency and compassion. Carcharoth (talk) 11:14, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

::Yes, with everything more he is writing on his talk page today (there has been significantly more since the diff link I posted earlier) I am becoming more concerned for him. I've made it clear I don't want to see him leave Wikipedia but as he took my starting this thread rather personally, and as I've been very active in trying to bring it to some sort of conclusion, I don't feel it appropriate to do more myself. Thryduulf (talk) 12:13, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

::{{ec}} I don't think the ongoing ramble on his talk page is meant to address anything here, but it sounds like he's done a lovely job painting his living room, and if shooting off a few dozen kilobytes of word salad is helping Si work through something, it doesn't seem to be hurting anybody. Doing the same at WP:RFD however is a different story. Decency and compassion are great, but Wikipedia is not therapy, and all of us commenting in this thread have tried I think very patiently to work with Si for several years. We're here to build an encyclopedia, not be mired down in endless cleanup from editors who drop nonsensical rambles and broken templates all over the project. After numerous editors have tried to find a better way, at some point we must give up and move on. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 12:21, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

{{archive bottom}}

{{archive top|result=Not this again. Just to re-iterate, if Mnh429 has any issues with the factuality of anything in the article, then they should point that out on the talk page. Unfortunately for them, people who push pseudo-scientific nonsense do tend to have that pointed out in their articles; that's not something we can prevent if it's supporting by reliable sources. And, as pointed out below, we don't whitewash articles, which is what the user is requesting. Black Kite (talk) 18:02, 10 May 2017 (UTC)}}

I have been attempting to request edits to make the Ann Louise Gittleman BLP page fair and balanced (see talk page). However, for the past month, no substantive changes have been made to resolve the negative tone of the article. I have incorporated feedback by the editors and offered revised edits per their comments. The editors have not accepted a single proposed edit nor have they attempted to work with me towards presenting Gittleman's biography with a fair, unbiased, and neutral point of view. As currently drafted, the article is littered with unfair treatment of Gittleman, is demeaning of her education and career, and associates Gittleman with criticisms that are irrelevant to her biography.

I need administrator assistance to make edits to the following statements to achieve neutrality and to create some credibility for this article (It is my understanding that due to my COI I cannot make these edits myself):

• Gittleman is a noted promoter of pseudoscientific ideas on health and nutrition.
• Overly and unnecessarily negative. Sources do not support statement.
• In 2002 she was given a PhD in Holistic Nutrition from Clayton College of Natural Health, an unaccredited and now defunct institution criticized as a diploma mill. In 2010, it closed due to financial difficulties. Clayton College did not provide clinical training.
• Everything after "Health" is negative in tone and deceptively associates Gittleman with the closing of Clayton College.
• In 1994, she became a spokesperson for Rejuvex, a "natural" menopause product that lacks sufficient evidence for safety and effectiveness.
• Everything after "Rejuvex" is irrelevant to Gittleman as a spokesperson.
• Gittleman's works have been criticized as being inconsistent with the best understanding of health and nutrition and for presenting scientific research in an overly simplistic and one-sided manner.
• Overly and unnecessarily negative. Sources do not support statement.
• According to Healthline, Gittleman's Fat Flush Plan is a fad diet that relies upon "convoluted science and gimmicky logic to sell its products" and that the bulk of the plan should be skipped because "a two-week juice fast is never healthy."
• Overly and unnecessarily negative. Source is taken out of context and is misleading. Source contains incorrect facts about the Fat Flush Plan. Source is given undue weight.
• Gittleman's suggestion to detoxify as part of the Fat Flush Plan has made her diet the subject of criticism from some nutritionists and medical doctors. Dr. Judith Stern, vice president of the American Obesity Society, has called the Fat Flush Plan "pseudoscience" that promises everything, but is "a fantasy".
• Overly negative as it does not provide the other view by nutritionists and medical doctors who support Gittleman's work, such as Dr. Mark Hyman. Dr. Stern is a competitor of Gittleman, so the source is inherently biased.
• Gittleman's 2010 book Zapped has been met with some skepticism by reviewers who claim the book incorporates non-scientific concepts to assert the danger of electromagnetic fields, as well as presenting evidence in a biased manner.
• Overly negative as it ignores sources that have provided positive reviews of book.

In addition, the edit that removed "nutritionist" from the first line of the article should be undone. Gittleman is notable precisely for being a nutritionist as supported by multiple sources in the article. The removal of this term illustrates the non-neutral attempt to discredit her career as a nutritionist. Mnh429 (talk) 17:19, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

• No, admins will not help you whitewash the article. Even if one of us wanted to, we have no power to make decisions about content. Content decisions are made by consensus on the article talk page, and admins to not have any veto or override power. Oh, and if you have a conflict of interest, you should declare it. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 17:29, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

::Mnh429 has apparently already declared a conflict of interest. The Talk page includes a notification that says the user "has been paid by Ann Louise Gittleman on their behalf." Agricolae (talk) 17:37, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

{{ab}}

{{Clear}}

User:Djln is systematically destroying thousands of correct subcategories for ALL basketball articles and categories on Wikipedia. This issue is URGENT and he is abusing the use of HotCat like nobody I've seen before. For example, he [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Category:1907%E2%80%9308_Western_Conference_men%27s_basketball_season&diff=prev&oldid=779022328 completely disregarded this category's description and intent] just so he could put "{{tl|{{tl|Category redirect|Category:1907–08 in American college basketball by team}}" in it. Also other examples of his widespread abuse include [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=1903–04_Michigan_State_Normal_Normalites_men's_basketball_team&diff=prev&oldid=779019325 this], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=1899%E2%80%931900_Penn_State_Nittany_Lions_basketball_team&diff=prev&oldid=779017774 this], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=1898%E2%80%9399_Michigan_State_Normal_Normalites_men%27s_basketball_team&diff=prev&oldid=779015478 this], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Category_talk:1906%E2%80%9307_IAAUS_men%27s_basketball_season&action=history this]...and the list goes on. He literally single-handedly ruined all of college basketball's categorization schemes, which took hundreds of hours to craft. He is unilaterally abusing HotCat, took NO time to determine WHY certain schemes are in place, and to be honest he is making me consider leaving Wikipedia altogether. I focus primarily on US college basketball topics, and have spent thousands (10,000+ probably) hours since 2007 crafting this art of the website, only to be disheartened by a HotCat tyrant undo so much of my work with dozens of erroneous edits per minute - nothing I can possibly imagine having to revert myself.

I request IMMEDIATE revoking of his use of HotCat, rollback, and any other privileges until he can demonstrate consensus-building and an understanding that what he's doing is NOT OK. I also further request all of his edits to be completely undone, which will need a bot to do because of how widespread this is. Help!!!!! Jrcla2 (talk) 15:47, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

:Note 1 – look at this user's talk page. He's been told for YEARS about improper categorizing, merging, unilateral moves etc. This user needs an immediate block while all of this mess is being sorted out! Jrcla2 (talk) 15:54, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

::Seems to have been one block and lots of discussions over their category edits back in 2010[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Djln&oldid=354972427]. I haven't checked if there have been any other category related issues from 2010 until now. —Bagumba (talk) 16:38, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

:Note 2 – Djln is from Ireland (as evidence by his user page) and so he likely has no idea about the way American college sports are regarded, nor how they're categorized. He seems obsessed with nationality-related categorization to replace anything topic-specific, which is the wrong way to go about Wikipedia. Jrcla2 (talk) 17:02, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

• Please explain why his edits are disruptive, and please can you link to the discussion/guideline/whatever which demonstrates community consensus showing that? GiantSnowman 15:59, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
• I don't have any knowledge of this, but to take one of your examples, but moving 1903–04 Michigan State Normal Normalites men's basketball team from :Category:1903–04 in American college basketball to :Category:1903–04 in American college basketball by team seems logical. Can you explain why it's wrong for those of us that aren't sports fans? Black Kite (talk) 16:01, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
• I see no problem, agreeing with Black Kite for now. —JJBers 16:02, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

::Black Kite, JJBers: in the other examples he's overwriting specific categorization by conference by to a more general categorization. This is bad. Djln needs to immediately stop this sort of editing and discuss. Jweiss11 (talk) 16:04, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

:::[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=1900%E2%80%9301_Wisconsin_Badgers_men%27s_basketball_team&diff=779012425&oldid=736753789 This] is actually a much better example. Jweiss11 (talk) 16:08, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

::::: So some might be OK, and some might not be? Incidentally, Jrcla2 needs to stop reverting every single one of his edits as well. That isn't helping, especially if the edits are of mixed usefulness. Both should stop and discuss. Black Kite (talk) 16:06, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

::::::The evidence doesn't do much, I looked and saw nothing other than some edits to pages and a few category redirects changes. I personally still agree with Black Kite's comment above. —JJBers 16:08, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

::::Someone needs to provide diffs of the 'bad' edits and explain why, so those of us not involved in college basketball can review and take action if necessary. GiantSnowman 16:09, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

::::: {{Ping|JJBers}} {{Ping|GiantSnowman}}: please see [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=1900%E2%80%9301_Wisconsin_Badgers_men%27s_basketball_team&diff=779012425&oldid=736753789 this example]. Jweiss11 (talk) 16:10, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

:::::: I don't think you should need to know anything about college basketball to understand why this is bad. That edit is blowing away a well-established pattern of categorization reflected on thousands of other articles. Jweiss11 (talk) 16:13, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

::::Look at the [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Category:1903%E2%80%9304_in_American_college_basketball&action=history edit history] of that category! Djln MOVED the category from "Category:1903–04 collegiate men's basketball season in the United States" to "Category:1903–04 in American college basketball", which he then decided screw it let me create "Category:1903–04 in American college basketball by team". THAT is what's bad - he took a perfectly legitimate category, moved it to something wrong, then moved the article to the doubly-wrong category. Look at the paper trail for god's sake. Jrcla2 (talk) 16:11, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

:::::Looking at the edits provided above, I see no harm, if not, helping the categories, they looked over specific before, then he generalized them, slightly. —JJBers 16:14, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

::::::Are you. fucking. kidding. me. Jrcla2 (talk) 16:15, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

{{od}} So basically, Djln has (without discussion or explanation) decided to change how an entire topic (college basketball) is categorised, contrary to long established conventions? GiantSnowman 16:16, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

:Yes, thank you GiantSnowman. Spot on. Literally 10,000+ categories are likely affected. Jrcla2 (talk) 16:17, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

::Yes, GiantSnowman, that is a good summary of the situation. Jweiss11 (talk) 16:18, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

:::OK. Well, they've stopped editing for now so everyone can take a breather. Let's see what Djln says when they return. GiantSnowman 16:19, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

:::Right, thanks. I'll drop a note onto his talkpage, though looking back he doesn't seem to use it that much. Black Kite (talk) 16:21, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

::::That seems good. —JJBers 16:22, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

:::: Jweiss11, Jrcla2: what is a good location to discuss this? Wikipedia talk:WikiProject College Basketball? Black Kite (talk) 16:24, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

::::: I would say so, yes. As this definitely would affect WikiProject College Football and WikiProject College Baseball (all 3 of these WPs work in consensus for consistency among formatting, categorizing, etc.) those editors should participate on the WP College Basketball page as well. Jrcla2 (talk) 16:59, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

:::::: OK - added this to the note on Djln's talkpage. Black Kite (talk) 17:28, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

• I find the attitude of Jrcla2 very alarming and completely over the top. The claims he has made in his rant are completely unfounded as other others editors have pointed out here. In fact the comment Djln is from Ireland ... and so he likely has no idea about the way American college sports are regarded is borderline racist. His unilataral reverting of my edits is also not helpful. All I have tried to do is tidy up American college basketball categories. They are extremely over categorised and are just a mess. This makes it virtually impossible for editors or readers to find articles. For example at the category "Athletic League of New England State Colleges men's basketball seasons" there are 20 subcategories each containing just one article which is frankly ridiculous. There are dozens if not hundreds of other similar examples. I have tidied up similar categories across various sports and I can't really see what the issue is here. All I planned to do was merge these categories into more easy to navigate categories based on "XXXX-XX in American college basketball" and/or "XXXX-XX in American college basketball" by team" format. Djln Djln (talk) 20:54, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

::borderline racist. I don't know you nor Jrcla2, but I doubt that is racist. I (e.g.) don't know how the Euro-sport system works, and while it is learnable, I don't find the basic assumption of Jrcla (while possibly unhelpful) totally unreasonable. His unilataral reverting of my edits is also not helpful. True, addressed above. Consensus should be reached before a major reorganisation though. d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 21:11, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

:::{{ping|User:L3X1}} Sorry but I find the comment to be racially offensive. If mentioning where somebody comes from and citing it is as reason for them not contributing to Wiki is not borderline racist then what is. Djln Djln (talk) 21:39, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

::::Oh for fuck sake, will you get a clue? You apparently don't know what you're doing, regardless of why. EEng 10:37, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

:::::{{ping|User:EEng}} Thanks for your contributuion, totally inappropriate and unhelpful. Djln Djln (talk) 12:29, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

::::::You're welcome. Jrcla2 was offering a way to see what you're doing as the result of a cultural difference rather than you just being a disruptive prick, and you choose to turn it into "racism". EEng 12:55, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

:::::{{ping|User:EEng}} "cultural difference" is a term used by racists to try and claim they are not racist. Dial it down with the language, totally inappropriate and uncalled for. Your contibutions are not helpful. What is your point. Djln Djln (talk) 13:36, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

::::::I've blocked EEng for the above. It's possible to disagree, and even to disagree vehemently, without calling someone a "disruptive prick". Using such language actually causes more disruption. It would be better not to comment at all than to comment in such a manner. --John (talk) 13:46, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

::::::And I've also blocked Djln for disruptively continuing to edit basketball categories following Black Kite's warning. --John (talk) 15:10, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

• Holy blockfest batman. See below Jytdog (talk) 17:15, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

Well, I'm glad this entire thing became a block party that has nothing to do with the original issue, which is Djln unilaterally restructuring the entire schema of WikiProject College Basketball without the slightest hint of consensus or regard for tens of thousands of man hours on that WikiProject. Good job everyone, glad I brought this up. Jrcla2 (talk) 20:02, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

:The thing that those of you who posted "I see nothing wrong" with the new categories is that the term "America" can refer to several things. "North" - "South" (both of which have numerous countries that play basketball) - "United States of" - etc. The categories are precise when United States is used. They are not when "America" is. Jrcla2's original point needs to be addressed before to prevent the disruption from continuing after the block ends. MarnetteD|Talk 20:18, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

:User:Jrcla2 yep this happens sometimes at ANI. So Djln has received a 24 hour block, based specifically on the behavior you brought here. If the block doesn't wake them up to the fact that they need to get consensus before pursuing massive cat reorganization and they go right back to it, you will have no problem getting an emergency block again, and very likely get a TBAN enacted. We do things stepwise. Jytdog (talk) 20:28, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

Please review [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ADjln&type=revision&diff=779194843&oldid=779040524 this block] by User:John in response to the thread above. Jytdog (talk) 17:15, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

• Endorse block - user was warned to stop editing basketball categories, user continued editing basketball categories, user is blocked. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 17:28, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
• Endorse block - gotta agree - user was warned, kept doing it, and added allusions to racism to boot. Ealdgyth - Talk 17:33, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
• Endorse block Implications- not even reaching the level of accusations- of racism are particularly unhelpful at best and at worst, chilling. — O Fortuna ^{semper crescis, aut decrescis} 18:36, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
• Endorse block
   — Berean Hunter (talk) 18:48, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
• Endorse block if Dljn doesn't get it, that unilateral re-organization of a slew of related categories is not OK and goes back to it, they should get an emergency block to stop the disruption, and we should discuss a TBAN. Jytdog (talk) 20:30, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
• Endorse Yeah, I can't disagree with a block after just simply ignoring a admin's warning, I feel this was completely necessary. —JJBers 22:13, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

{{archive top|result=(non-admin closure) Unblocked after discussion [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:John&oldid=779235890#Please_unblock here] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AEEng&type=revision&diff=779217810&oldid=779217232 here]. Jytdog (talk) 20:16, 7 May 2017 (UTC)}}

Please review [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AEEng&type=revision&diff=779181699&oldid=779153951 this block] of {{noping|EEng}} by User:John in response to [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=prev&oldid=779175554 this comment] by EEng. Please also see the ongoing discussion at [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:EEng&oldid=779290283#May_2017 EEng#May2017]. Jytdog (talk) 17:15, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

• Endorse block, noting that I had warned the user about personal attacks earlier this week after they repeatedly posted insulting comments about another editor with whom I was trying to discuss their own block. It seems to me EEng has been on this path for a while now. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 17:25, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
• Bit more difficult. Generally I find EEng to be somewhat annoying, but while he certainly is wanting people to read between the lines, this one isn't as clear-cut to me. I don't follow EEng so I can't say if he's been pushing the boundaries lately. Might have been better to ask him to refactor/strike the comment before blocking. Ealdgyth - Talk 17:35, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
• Resolved by {{u|Bishonen}}, and we can move on. ^{Atsme📞📧} 18:25, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
• Comment. The comment of EEng in question was inflammatorily worded, but was actually (if carefully read) about finding a way *not* to interpret the target of the comment as misbehaving. That is, it was a show of good faith rather than an attack. Regardless, it has been resolved by Bishonen's unblock, I hope. —David Eppstein (talk) 18:34, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
• Comment I will say that although undoubtedly the correct interpretation, if EEng doesn't mind me saying, it was phrased in such a way as to make such a misinterpretaion not just possible but even likely. It was a complexly-structured statement which could be easily mis-parsed. I think my personal suggestion would be that, in future, if an editor is going to mention potentially offensive epithets, it would be better to do so in a manner in which it was clear that it was based on hypotheticals rather than accusations. of course someone will now point out that that this is probably one of the most turgid paragraphs on this page. Meh. Parse that! :) — O Fortuna ^{semper crescis, aut decrescis} 18:42, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

::I think I was perfectly clear, and admins are supposed to AGF and check their parsing before blocking. Reducing everything to the explicit and obvious helps editors' critical faculties grow flabby. EEng 18:48, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

:::That would kind of make this the Krypton Factor. Better to take it easy :) — O Fortuna ^{semper crescis, aut decrescis} 18:52, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

::::Like I'm supposed to get that reference, as if I was one of you Brit poofs.{{fbdb}} EEng 18:58, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

{{archive bottom}}

Please review [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ARoxy_the_dog&type=revision&diff=779206023&oldid=778530079 this block] of {{noping|Roxy the dog}} by User:Ivanvector in response to [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:EEng&diff=prev&oldid=779197376 this insult] by Roxy the Dog. In response to the block Roxy the dog wrote [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Roxy_the_dog&diff=next&oldid=779206023 this] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Roxy_the_dog&diff=prev&oldid=779208794 this], which led Ivanvector to [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Roxy_the_dog&diff=next&oldid=779208794 revoke] talk page access. Jytdog (talk) 17:15, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

:Thanks Jytdog. I think I was pretty clear in my rationale for the block, and you can also review [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Roxy_the_dog&diff=779208794&oldid=779208552 this unblock request] for why I disabled talk access. I haven't read any of this thread, I had EEng's talk page on my watchlist for having warned them about a separate personal attack a few days ago. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 17:23, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

::{{u|Ivanvector}}, I have the utmost respect for your work on WP, and see no reason to think otherwise. I would very much appreciate your consideration of [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:EEng&diff=779220021&oldid=779219701 this diff] and hope you will reconsider this block. ^{Atsme📞📧} 18:31, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

::{{u|Ivanvector}}, as I said on Roxy's talk page [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Roxy_the_dog&curid=31209625&diff=779221903&oldid=779209885], I think this was a very poorly thought-out block sequence. It gives a chilling impression that admins are royalty immune from criticism, undermining the legitimacy of the authority you've been granted. I think it's important for admins to model the behavior they seek, including showing a thicker skin and greater interest in resolving and deescalating situations than you showed here. Roxy is an established editor and should first have been offered a chance to revert or edit his remark to conform to the guidelines. I was especially troubled by your revoking TPA because Roxy questioned your actions. It smacks of retaliation. Msnicki (talk) 18:42, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

:::Except Roxy didn't question his judgement...all she did was call two admins pricks....and you're troubled?
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 19:01, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

:Roxy's comment was an unambiguous personal attack but a harmless one. Ivanvector needs to grow a thicker skin. —David Eppstein (talk) 18:38, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

::The original attack wasn't directed at him so that is a misread.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 18:46, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

:::Ok, you're right, it was an unambiguous personal attack to John, not to Ivan (they're really the same name at root, right?) My apologies to Ivan for the mixup. Nevertheless I think that as a mild and deliberate provocation the better response would have been for everyone to just roll their eyes and move on rather than granting this bit of trolling the gratification of being noticed. —David Eppstein (talk) 18:51, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

::::Thickness of skin is an asset even when one is a bystander to the main action. Msnicki's points are very well taken. Ivanvector, that new-sheriff-in-town feeling will wear off by and by. EEng 19:01, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

RIGHT. No-one ... is to block ANYONE ... until I blow this whistle! Even if - and let me make this absolutely clear - even if they do say "prick". Black Kite (talk) 18:41, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

:{{u|Black Kite}} is complete pr- pomegranite!!! — O Fortuna ^{semper crescis, aut decrescis} 18:44, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

:{{u|Black Kite}} Can I say Biggus Dickus? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:46, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

• Endorse block and tp revocation. This one is so clear cut...why is this under review again?
   — Berean Hunter (talk) 18:46, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

::I'd agree that the block was, pace Roxy, pretty clearly coming. I groaned when I saw the comment. It has none of the - can I call them, orthographical- protections that Bishonen raised on the original block. And, although I agree with Msnicki, that Admins shouldn't be immune fro criticism, they should also have the same protections as any other editor re. personal attacks, in this case. However- I also agree with that the subsequent revoking of TPA was troubling- Roxy's second remark should have been left to an WP:UNINVOLVED admin to gauge the extent of the attack. That, at least, should probably be reversed. — O Fortuna ^{semper crescis, aut decrescis} 18:59, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

:::I disagree. Editors may not use their talk page while blocked to continue the behaviour which led to the block, and Roxy's two subsequent talk page posts contained nothing other than more deliberate and directed insults. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 19:07, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

::::Ivanvector, I'm not saying you're wrong. As you make clear, the letter of the law supports your action- the spirit of it however suggests it is commeon sense to allow someone else to decide. — O Fortuna ^{semper crescis, aut decrescis} 08:38, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

:::I don't think even the first block was warranted. As {{u|Awilley}} alludes on Roxy's talk page [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ARoxy_the_dog&type=revision&diff=779226505&oldid=779226298], even that first block completely fails point 4 in WP:Civility#Blocking for incivility, which asks that "Users should be clearly warned, in most circumstances, before being blocked for incivility, and should be allowed sufficient time to retract, refactor or explain uncivil comments." Msnicki (talk) 19:18, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

::::Completely agree, and Ivanv, you really do need to reread UNINVOLVED. The standard of "any reasonable administrator would have probably come to the same conclusion" is very high, and as seen here it's not met. As usual, if other admins agree one will step in, and there's no hurry. EEng 19:19, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

• I'm very sorry to see that Roxy has got caught up in this; personally I'm happy to let people conclude for themselves whether my various blocks say more about me or more about the admins involved, but others get more emotional about it. Given that the block I received was overturned as wrongheaded, Roxy should be cut some slack. Ivanvector, you need to read the context of people's posts, even one like the one you blocked Roxy for, before acting. EEng 18:55, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

• I don't know what the hell Roxy thought he was doing with that original comment on EEng's page. The only thing that makes sense to me is that he was going for a solidarity block (for want of a better term) in response to EEng's block. So he got that; fair enough. But the revocation of talk page access did not follow policy. Talk page access should be revoked for "extreme cases of abuse" and "only in the case of continued abuse of the talk page". There was one expression of anger toward the blocking admin, which constitutes neither "extreme" nor "continued" abuse. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 19:02, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

::Since Roxy really shouldn't have been blocked I'll go ahead and say this. He was pissed off that an admin with a long history with me, and who has a good-friend fellow editor who feels free to call people cunts, blocked me for calling someone a prick{{snd}}except of course that I didn't do that, or anything like that. The block was muddleheaded in its most charitable interpretation, and Roxy's reaction was understandable if emotional. And the talk-page revocation is completely over the top. EEng 19:11, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

• Sorry, I don't buy any of this "it's okay, they have history" stuff. "History" doesn't get you a free pass to deliver insulting remarks to anybody on this website. We all read what you write; if you don't want it to be interpreted as an insult, don't call people "pricks" or "cunts" or whatever, even in jest ("I was just kidding" doesn't get you a free pass either, nor claiming your insults are "friendly banter"). From what I saw Roxy came across an editor blocked for calling someone a "prick", and in response repeated the insult to troll the blocking administrator apparently with no context or provocation at all. I considered whether or not warning someone not to do something that most anyone should know not to do was a waste of anyone's time and decided it was, and so Roxy was blocked. While responding to being blocked for that, Roxy continued trolling by repeating the insult a second time embedded in the {{tl|unblock}} template, which is an abuse of that process. I then removed the unblock request; I considered leaving it for an uninvolved administrator to review but this also would have been a waste of time as it did not contain a block appeal, only a repeat of the insult. Frankly, had I known you all have "history", by which I interpret this insult was a continuation of a long pattern of abusive behaviour, this would have been a much longer block. I can appreciate that some people have different views of the uses of different words and whether they're insulting or not ("cunt" in particular being a fine example) but it was clear from Roxy's comment that it was intended to be an insult, and both comments they made after being blocked were also insults. I will not be undoing this block. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 19:54, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

::Then someone else should. And perhaps you should reconsider why you wish to be an admin. Notably absent in your remarks is any explanation of why you failed to follow the guidelines at WP:Civility#Blocking for incivility, nor any evidence you appreciate that you cannot use the tools when you are involved, nor any indication you understand the importance of deescalation or the need to admit a mistake when you're wrong. A number of editors at your RfA claimed to have seen this coming; please don't prove them right. Msnicki (talk) 20:07, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

:::Ivanvector, if you can't see even now that I did not call (even slyly) anyone a prick, then there's something seriously wrong. You really, really need to think about that Msnicki is saying, for your own good. EEng 20:54, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

::::Roxy's block has little to do with whether or not you called anyone anything. You were blocked for a specific insult, and whether or not you had actually wrote it, Roxy repeated that specific insult below your block notice. Your being blocked for a specific word ought to have been warning enough that uttering that specific word was grounds for blocking, yet Roxy repeated it anyway, and in a manner clearly meant to insult. Thus, blocked. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 21:56, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

• For some context, Roxy and John have a negative history (see [http://tools.wmflabs.org/sigma/editorinteract.py?users=Roxy+the+dog&users=John&users=&startdate=&enddate=&ns=&server=enwiki interaction analyzer], that I believe arose from Roxy's disagreement with John's placing of specific DS on the Ayurveda article ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Ayurveda/Archive_7#Update diff]) in the midst of a very ugly period of conflict at that article back in March 2015, and then John's [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log/block&page=User%3AAlexbrn blocking] of {{noping|Alexbrn}} based on those DS, which John subsequently lifted. Discussions of that block are [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Alexbrn&oldid=654159688#Ayurveda here] at Alexbrn's talk page, and got ugly and personal. It is unsurprising to me that Roxy objected to John's blocking of EEng. I am not excusing Roxy's behavior. It was bad, twice - it is possible to object without the name-calling. Just wanted to provide the context as to where Roxy's initial comment came from, since it was asked. fwiw I have emailed Roxy and asked them to apologize. I am not commenting on the block. Jytdog (talk) 20:12, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

• Move to close by lifting the blocks on Roxy and instructing Ivanvector to pay closer attention to the guidelines. {{u|Ivanvector}} has failed to show cause for failing to follow the guidelines notice requirement before in imposing the initial block and then misused the tools to revoke TPA when they felt insulted. Msnicki (talk) 21:46, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

::This is a gross mischaracterization. This is not a block for general incivility, it is a block for a specific, directed personal attack against a specific editor. Talk page access was revoked when the blocked editor abused the {{tl|unblock}} template to repeat the specific, directed personal attack. I was not the target of the personal attack and am not WP:INVOLVED. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 21:51, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

::No. Your argument is completely wrong. False accusations of tool misuse can become grounds for a boomerang, too. You go file at ArbCom if you think that your argument has merit...that's where you go if you want to gather the torches and pitchforks and witchhunt for a desysop.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 22:09, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

File:Road_grading_machine_catalog_-_1889.jpg

• Sorry I missed all the excitement, what with the Kentucky Derby and grading and all. I found myself clicking on EEng's talk page, accidentally, after I saw a note on grindr's messaging system about the block. The block itself is what it is, or what it was--I have no intention of getting in between {{U|John}} and {{U|Bishonen}}, both of whom I respect, but I will say that I see the reason on both sides: the remark was at least somewhat questionable. (Sorry EEng, you know I love you like...well, that's hard to say, but like something.)

  Anyway, that's not why I'm here. I was about to leave a note on EEng's talk page about the fallout of the block; specifically, I was going to ask Roxy and WaltCip, and all the onlookers, if they could please refrain from making those kinds of comments about the blocking admin. That's not disagreeing with a block--it's a kneejerk personal attack. {{U|The Rambling Man}}, you made a similar comment about Bishonen on John's talk page. There is no need for any of that nor, dear TRM, is there any reason for your continued vendetta against Floq. You don't like him, you don't agree with him--fine. It's not for here, anywhere here. WaltCip, Roxy, y'all's snarky comments only raise the temperature to the point where it may be wise to fully protect blocked editors' talk pages to prevent such stuff. That Roxy continues to call someone a prick, that's one thing--but they are the blocked editor, and we have given them room to vent, typically, at least some room. You all do not have that excuse and at the risk of sounding like an old prick, I just don't get it: so here we are again, with another shit storm over a block that was, in the end, resolved, even if not to everyone's satisfaction (but that's normal)--a shit storm leading to another block and an ANI thread and whatnot. Surely most of this was not necessary. Drmies (talk) 22:38, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

• :No, just to put the record straight, I did like Floq, and still do, yet he was enabled by numerous admins, including Bishonen, to call me a prick and to tell me to "fuck off", and call me an "asshole". That was an admin talking to an editor. Bishonen has recently made strongly damaging punitive blocks for no benefit to Wikpiedia. As for the comparison on blocking/unblocking punitive blocks, well that's a matter for discussion in the future when we have a clearer picture of what damage an off-hand block can do. Time will tell. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:43, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

::*Well, "fuck off" isn't usually blockable, we know that. As for the allegations of "strongly damaging punitive blocks", you are welcome to bring that up, and present a case, in the appropriate forum. Outside of that forum they are nothing more but irrelevant allegations and aspersions, and they do, as far as I'm concerned, insult and/or belittle. In other words, I urge you to refrain, and I won't put it more strongly than that. Same with "punitive" blocks, BTW--that is exactly the kind of commentary that causes heat, not light. Drmies (talk) 01:23, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

:*Drmies, you {{tq|saw a note on grindr's messaging system about the block}}? Um, [https://www.grindr.com/ "The world's largest gay social network app"] follows Wikipedia blocks?? Really??? EEng 23:24, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

::*I better first say {{fbdb}}, but then, he does have his user page in :Category:Wikipedian sex workers. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:13, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

:::*Hey, kids cost a lot of money--but can I just add that not everyone on grindr is making money? Drmies (talk) 01:23, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

::::*Psst – I know where you can buy kids real cheap! --Tryptofish (talk) 01:28, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

:::::FTR, I didn't see nuffin hear nuffin know nuffin. d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 01:55, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

• I'm also going to come down on the side of recommending a lifting of the block. It seems to me that both the block and the revocation of talk page access amount to a "cool-down" block. That said, I'll note that somewhere above I saw someone describe the overall situation quite accurately as a "block party", and it would in fact be a good idea for everyone to cool down. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:10, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

• Perhaps this is self-serving, but doesn't it seem like the correct response to "personal attacks" is an admin or uninvolved calm and wise person (not someone clueless) redacting the personal attack, and leaving a note on the user's talk page "Hey, please dial it back, you've gone too far". Then, if it continues, redacting the second attack and leaving a note on the user's talk page "Um, I'm sorry you're pissed off, but if it happens again I'll have to block you". Then, if it continues, a block. We treat vandals like that, not sure why we can't treat pissed off people like that.

:If I could be sure it wouldn't outrage {{ping|Ivanvector}}, I'd unblock Roxy now to try to staunch the bleeding, but I don't know Ivanvector well enough to know whether that would piss him off enough that it would just make things spiral further out of control. But I think it would be best for someone - Ivan or someone else - to unblock Roxy with a note that Marine le Pen lost, so the world isn't quite so hopeless as it could be, and please don't do that anymore. --Floquenbeam (talk) 00:18, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

:*Papa Floq, I made a proposal of sorts on the Roxy Dog talk page. And Le Pen may have lost, but she still finished second, so *()*(%&&^&_*)_))()_)()_)(*&^%$##$, if that's OK with you. Drmies (talk) 01:17, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

• Endorse block. This is a clear-cut personal attack. kcowolf (talk) 00:47, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
• Endorse block and TP revocation. As above, this is a clear cut series of personal attacks. This isn't the way to interact in a collaborative project. SQL^{Query me!} 01:28, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
• NA Com IMO, the way I read it, thick skin does not make behavior acceptable or excusable. Yes, adminny activites should be devoid of emotion, but bad actions are not to be ignored. d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 01:57, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

• It doesn't appear to me that any clear consensus to over ride Ivanvector's block is going to happen, nor is there any clear consensus endorsement, so the negotiations among admins at Roxy's talk page appears to me the only viable solution. So I closed this. I was just asked to unclose, and so I have. No drama. Jytdog (talk) 03:43, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

• Roxy has woken up and seen the train wreck on their TP. They [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Roxy_the_dog&diff=prev&oldid=779332929 said] that they haven't read everything but wanted to say that they will not be appealing the block. Jytdog (talk) 14:42, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

• Ummm.... Has anyone ever heard of trouting? Because both of the blocks I've seen here should have been trouts. The second one, of Roxy perhaps should have been a very strongly worded trout, but still. [http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-v4WeWI0BKAI/UBmi3aUSylI/AAAAAAAAIl0/alLi2ABeStg/s1600/CalmDown5.jpg Deescalation is the best way to go. Blocks are supposed to be preventative, not punitive, and this is exactly why]. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 15:05, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
• :We don't use strongly worded trouts anymore. We use {{self-whale}} when a trout just isn't enough. Oh, wait - you know that already. ^{Atsme📞📧} 17:04, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

• I'm with {{u|Floquenbeam}} on this one. Better to use words before tools in cases like this. Admin get insulted, we are expected to deal with it, to a point. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 00:04, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

• [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9VLwV48OHs#t=4m52 Lucky I didn't say anything about the dirty knife!] EEng 13:39, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

::Meh... As long as nobody [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfl6Lu3xQW0 mentions the war], it's alright. Kleuske (talk) 15:11, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

• [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_IYQdKkWsU EEng posts a comment at ANI] EEng 20:20, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
• A lot of the dra-mah has now passed, so I'm going to offer a bit of unsolicited but friendly advice. EEng, that video of you posting the comment does a nice (and fun) job of pointing out how your original comment set off a cascade of other... stuff. I think editors should be free to offer uninvolved comments about disputes raised at ANI. But I've noticed that many of your comments come across as sort of like all the rest of you are missing the obvious, and I'm drawing attention to how silly that looks. It comes across as smug, and predisposes others to react as they did here. Please give that some thought. Thanks. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:20, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

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{{atop|(non-admin closure) Warned. d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 01:32, 11 May 2017 (UTC)}}

The following IP User talk:199.189.81.54 is clearly a vandal that just keeps on going. I think a block would be appropriate. ^{Atsme📞📧} 19:12, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

:Level 4 warning issued. If this continues report at WP:AIV or drop me a line. -Ad Orientem (talk) 19:35, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

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{{atop|This issue has been dealt with. The editor who uses the pseudonym "JamesBWatson" (talk) 09:19, 11 May 2017 (UTC)}}

• {{User|2605:E000:62D1:A200:1A:109C:1F9:8261}}
• {{User|Raeraeqotv}}

Unsourced edits and legal threats to Happy Hour (Uncle Kracker album). 2601:188:180:11F0:5EF:2CD2:B4C6:9648 (talk) 22:07, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

:{{nonadmin}} As the entire list of "personnel" was unsourced, I removed it. Also, please read WP:DOLT. The editor may not be familiar with Wikipedia's rules, threaten legal action and still have a point. Kleuske (talk) 22:17, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

::Removal of personnel was the right move. I hadn't read DOLT before, but note that it's an essay rather than policy. The user may not be familiar with rules, but has apparently used several accounts, and, per 'No legal threats', had to be reported. Thanks, 2601:188:180:11F0:5EF:2CD2:B4C6:9648 (talk) 22:20, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

{{hat|Frivolous comments on the authority of dolts. d.g. L3X1 (distant write)}}

:::Policy or otherwise, it's solid advice, endorsed by His Highness, the Benevolent Dictator of Wikipedia himself. Kleuske (talk) 22:24, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

::::Liar. I never endorsed that essay. ;) ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 22:26, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

:::::PENANCE!!! I endorse it and it's what matters. Be glad I don't make you do pinnace! Lord High Permanent Senior Undersecretary to L3X1 (addressed as His Worshipfulness Lordy Lord) 01:36, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

{{atop| (non-admin closure) Warned by Black Kite. d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 00:30, 11 May 2017 (UTC) }}

{{archivetop|Stale, please re-report either here or to me if there are any further legal threats or other issues with the page. Swarm ♠ 05:06, 11 May 2017 (UTC)}}

{{atop| An AfD was initiated. And just to yell my point from the mountain tops, it should be deleted for a host of reasons, and then an action squad should recreate it. d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 17:00, 11 May 2017 (UTC)}}

{{archive top|This was obviously a joke. But it wouldn't hurt if Director were to exercise more caution in future. SarahSV ^(talk) 23:59, 11 May 2017 (UTC)}}

{{atop| No block was needed, talking worked. RHB100 is going to avoid the subject for a bit. It is unclear if the TB from 2015 (see ANI archive 273) is still standing, as no Arbs revoked it, I assume it still is. d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 17:03, 11 May 2017 (UTC)}}

{{atop|(non-admin closure) No admin attention required at this noticeboard. d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 16:23, 12 May 2017 (UTC) }}

There is political censorship ongoing at Douban – persistent blanking of content cited to a reliable source. Engaging on the talk page has failed. I also left a message at Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard about 24 hours ago with no response from admins. Citobun (talk) 03:58, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

:There need to be more eyes on this editor. Going through his recent contributions shows an extreme slant towards nationalist views. Calling BBC unreliable is laughable. --Tarage (talk) 04:37, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

::{{ping|Tarage}}You don't have to unfriendly to me. Whaterss (talk) 08:23, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

::::{{ping|Citobun}}Probably you have used the wrong word, according to Political censorship, "Political censorship exists when a government attempts to conceal, fake, distort, or falsify information that its citizens receive by suppressing or crowding out political news that the public might receive through news outlets. ". Unfortunately, I'm not part of any governments. Calling my edits "censorship " is inappropriate. Whaterss (talk) 08:30, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

:::::Don't ping me, I'm watching the thread. And don't template me. Nothing I said above is a personal attack. You can have a strong nationalist view and not be a part of a government. Your edits are questionable at best. I suggest you stop digging the hole deeper and go edit something else for a while. You obviously can't be objective about nations or politics. --Tarage (talk) 08:38, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

::::::Sorry for having bothered you, it's part of my character anyway. Whaterss (talk) 09:00, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

:::::::{{ping|Citobun}} I quit. I faithfully apologize to you for any bothers I have made. I will not get involved in any political edits. Whaterss (talk) 09:13, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

:A few key points. This appears to be largely a WP:Content dispute for now, therefore it does not and will hopefully never require administrative attention. There are multiple methods of WP:Dispute resolution, but ANI is never one of them. Using the talk page is good, but if it's only 2 of you and you cannot resolve the dispute by yourselves, the dispute resolution page outlines various methods you can seek further help. Using RSN when there is dispute of a reliable source is actually a decent method, but you need to give more than 24 hours for a response and you need to take on board the feedback of any editor, and not just administrators. Nil Einne (talk) 13:23, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

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IP editor 208.54.35.245 has just made a vicious personal attack against me at the article Rastafari. The attack is visible [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Rastafari&diff=779942091&oldid=779941644 here]. I request it be removed from the article's edit history as a form of disruption and an unacceptable violation of WP:NPA. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 00:10, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

(More of the same visible [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:208.54.35.245&diff=779943780&oldid=779943469 here]; the IP is really asking for a block at this point). FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 00:17, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

:{{done}}: IP blocked and insulting edit summaries hidden. – Juliancolton | ^Talk 00:19, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

::Thank you. By the way, [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Rastafari&diff=779946063&oldid=779934445 this] edit at the talk page by another IP suggests a possible ongoing problem at the article. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 00:36, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

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{{atop|(non-admin closure) VOA blocked, obvious UAA violations. d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 16:21, 12 May 2017 (UTC)}}

Looking for an admin to check into User:Rstyweukhgnirkdhfdgv4riedygsrbdqiu34egdlfcip4eugsnc9w4ujr. Thanks! -Location (talk) 00:28, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

:Looks like he has given up. Thanks! -Location (talk) 00:53, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

::Clearly a vandalism only account. Blocked accordingly.Dlohcierekim (talk) 01:02, 12 May 2017 (UTC)File:Yes check.svg Done

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{{archive top|Discussion now at Wikipedia talk:New pages patrol/Reviewers#Lack of patrolling on the Wikipedia and Wikipedia talk namespace. TimothyJosephWood 17:53, 12 May 2017 (UTC)}}

At 9:23 UTC, 12 May 2017, an IP user created Wikipedia talk:1337 with only "Leet!" in it. This page clearly falls under WP:G2 and WP:G8 but it had gone unnoticed for more than 2 hours until I speedily tagged it (it should be deleted by now). But that's not it, a WP:G11 page about the user themselves, was not deleted until 6 days later. There's a more serious case which a page that also falls under WP:G11 with blatant advertising content and also contain user's own biography, took more than 3 years to be listed in MfD and be speedily deleted.

This is clearly a major flaw in our patrolling system, since we only concentrate on patrolling articles, but not the pages on the Wikipedia namespace. As such, attack pages or copyrighted content can be created and stayed much longer than a normal article would. I think we need to take actions to prevent this. Any ideas? --QianCheng_虔诚 11:45, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

:This probably belongs at Wikipedia talk:New pages patrol/Reviewers, and not here, since you seem to be suggesting a change in the way that NPP works, which would require substantial discussion and consensus, and not an incident which requires administrator intervention. TimothyJosephWood 12:33, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

::There's no real reason to use MfD for obvious cases, is there? Just CSD them with the appropriate category and be done with it, for stuff that's well out of scope for the project namespace. If need be, use a CSD with a specific rationale and say it's an WP:IAR common sense case (if it does not really fit a specific CSD code). Obviously, misplaced articles and user pages can just be moved to the correct namespace (for cases which are not obvious CSD material). Murph9000 (talk) 12:40, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

:::I do a lot of non-mainspace patrolling, and it often seems that I'm the only one doing it (with the exception of userspace). Of course NPP only stops the trash when it enters, digging up the trash that made it in is hard. – Train2104 (t • c) 13:54, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

• Hey! Some editors think that content creation is the only pure and holy task that can be done on Wikipedia. d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 14:03, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

• Thanks for commenting, I just found out WP:NPP does patrol the Wikipedia namespace because I thought they only patrol articles, will be opening a discussion there soon. QianCheng_虔诚 14:20, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

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{{atop|(non-admin closure) Indeffed for not being here to build and encyclopedia. d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 21:02, 12 May 2017 (UTC) }}

Could an admin please look into the editing behaviour of editor BlueGreenWhite? From his very first edits ([https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Igboland&diff=prev&oldid=759534532 1], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Flora_Nwapa&diff=prev&oldid=759807630 2]) to his [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Esan_people&diff=prev&oldid=780006924 current edit]) he keeps on adding unsourced material into articles, and presently he is busy [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Biafra&diff=780002743&oldid=779776796 removing valid sourced material] from this article. From his contributions it can be assumed that he is a single purpose editor who only edits Nigeria-related articles (e.g. by adding the word "igbo" into many of these articles without citing references ([https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ken_Olisa&diff=prev&oldid=778997421 1], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ebele_Okaro&diff=prev&oldid=780005015 2])). It appears as if this editor wants to own certain Nigeria-related articles by pushing forth his "igbo" version. He does not discuss with other editors who leave well meant messages of his talk page; what he does is use the edit summary for long winded explanations.

The issue that made me to report this case to this board is his repeated removal of a valid sourced [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Biafra&diff=779700494&oldid=779240556 entry] which I added into the Biafra article. In his reversal of my edit, he apparently fails to realize that he is also re-adding unsourced material back into the article.

So before this issue further develops into an edit war, an administrator should please take a close look. Thank you. 77.4.131.123 (talk) 12:53, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

:Looking at this user's talk page, it seems like this user is WP:NOTHERE. —JJBers 13:23, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

::*This user has been a major pain in my behind for a long while. Definitely an SPA. He seems to be so keen on pushing ethnocentric narratives into articles. He removes verifiable contributions that seem not to favour Igbo ethnicity (for example, the series reverts in this [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_Nigerian_cities_by_population&action=history overhauled list article, that shows some Igbo cities have lower populations than what was previously in the article]), and then adds original researches majorly to glorify Igbo ethnicity. He doesn't discuss, and when he does, he fails to admit clear Wikipedia policies (when they are against what he is doing). An admin definitely needs to look into the account. The behaviour from this account is obviously counterproductive to this project.--Jamie Tubers (talk) 20:00, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

:::I've blocked them for being WP:NOTHERE. It's clear from their edits, lack of discussion, and obvious flagrant ignorance of previous warnings that they were here to push a viewpoint. RickinBaltimore (talk) 20:03, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

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{{atop|Page deleted -- There'sNoTime ^{(to explain)} 14:41, 12 May 2017 (UTC)}}

Ruchir Gupta fails WP:NPEOPLE so I had nominated for speedy deletion. User is repeatedly removing tag even when asked to not do so. On Talk:Ruchir Gupta, I tried to explain policies but he does not care much. Please look as history and talkpage and do needful.--Nizil (talk) 14:33, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

:Deleted -- There'sNoTime ^{(to explain)} 14:41, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

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{{atop|(non-admin closure) Deleted and warned. User has not edited since then. d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 21:00, 12 May 2017 (UTC) }}

Someone needs to lose this account and all her contribs ASAP. Like WP911 territory. d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 20:31, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

{{u|RickinBaltimore}} First online admin I saw. d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 20:31, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

:I deleted the user page, however this looks like a kid using their page to create a story. I'm going to place a note on their userpage. RickinBaltimore (talk) 20:33, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

::Thanks so much. d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 20:37, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

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{{Moved discussion from|Wikipedia:Help desk|2=Ad Orientem (talk) 03:19, 8 May 2017 (UTC)}}

I'm not sure where to post this specific request, however {{IPvandal|70.102.136.132}} has made numerous edits to Wikipedia by changing small facts here which go through our vandal checking. It took me hours to determine {{diff|Otsu's_method|729793122|723718784|diff}} was wrong in an article, and checking his other contribs seems like he has left a ton of inaccuracies everywhere. I'm requesting for someone to go through his contribs and revert his changes manually, since none of them are sourced. Thanks -- penubag  (talk) 02:29, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

:Hello {{u|penubag}}, thanks for bringing this into notice. I'll go through the IP's contributions and assist where all I can. With respect to reporting the IP (if your query included that too), as the IP edits are dated, nothing needs to be done currently (apart from perhaps keeping a watch if the editing is egregiously bad). In the future, you may additionally consider reporting such cases to the WP:AIV desk (but only if the vandal edits are recent) or the WP:ANI (in case of editing that is below the line disruptive). Please don't hesitate to come back here for assistance in the future if you are unsure. Thanks. Lourdes 02:50, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

::Thanks, since he doesn't cite any of his edits, that should be sufficient grounds to revert all his edits. It should just be a matter of seeing if the edits are still persisting. -- penubag  (talk) 02:56, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

:::Not quite. You would need to confirm if the edits are actual vandalism or misplaced good faith attempts at editing , before reverting/undoing them unilaterally. If in doubt, ask for help here. Lourdes 03:11, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

: {{ping|penubag}} Where is the evidence (from your "hours of checking") that {{diff|Otsu's_method|729793122|723718784|the change to Otsu's_method}} was wrong? Doesn't the IP's changed version agree with a range of published sources, such as http://research.ijcaonline.org/volume49/number9/pxc3880757.pdf, https://rdrr.io/bioc/EBImage/man/channel.html, http://www.bioconductor.org/packages/release/bioc/manuals/EBImage/man/EBImage.pdf, and http://cmm.ensmp.fr/~marcoteg/cv/publi_pdf/amira/2016_IET_AdaptiveBinarisationSceneText.pdf (to name but a few)? I see that you didn't give any sources for {{diff2|779286138|your edit}}. --David Biddulph (talk) 03:01, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

• I'm going to suggest that we migrate this thread to ANI. -Ad Orientem (talk) 03:07, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

::Responded on Talk:Otsu's method -- penubag  (talk) 03:26, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

: I'm not convinced of what action is required of an administrator, and I don't see evidence of vandalism. I do see that the value .7152 occurs in the article Grayscale, but I'll leave it for the experts on the relevant content and sources to judge. --David Biddulph (talk) 03:48, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

:: The value of .7152 occurs also at Luma (video). --David Biddulph (talk) 04:14, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

{{Userlinks|73.28.172.74}}

I came across this user while monitoring Recent Changes. I noticed that they had made this edit to 21st Critics' Choice Awards, changing the name of one of the nominees. I verified in the article sources that the information this user added was incorrect, so I reverted the changes. Then I checked the user's contributions, and saw that they have been doing the same on other movie awards articles – changing the name of one of the nominees (mostly animated films), sometimes twice so that if only one edit is reverted, the article will still contain inaccurate info. To complicate matters, some of these articles are not adequately referenced, and I have not been able to find reliable sources online for the older awards; so I am not certain whether the movie names that were there before the IP changed them are actually the correct ones. (Being behind the firewall at work does not help...) Would it be fair to assume that all of the edits introduced by this IP are not factual and should be reverted? Thank you. –FlyingAce^✈talk 14:23, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

:Thanks for spotting it. This is a long term vandal previously and currently blocked many times,[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/73.27.228.183][https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log/block&page=User%3A2601%3A702%3A4204%3A70B0%3A0%3A0%3A0%3A0%2F64]. I've previously protected virtually of the articles related to Critics' Choice Awards, Kids' Choice Awards, Annie Awards and MTV Movie Awards. It also tends to wander into Golden Globe Awards and some others. Moar protection may be required. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 14:25, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

I should probably write an LTA page about this vandal, unless anyone knows of one. Here's a selection of previous IPs:

• {{IPvandal|50.153.10.3}}
• {{IPvandal|50.153.13.24}}
• {{IPvandal|74.4.73.100}}
• {{IPvandal|208.54.32.149}}
• {{IPvandal|172.56.1.163}}
• {{IPvandal|2601:702:4200:36EE:91CE:32D7:749D:AB9A}}
• {{IPvandal|2601:702:4200:36EE:34DF:9CBF:912F:6AD1}}
• {{IPvandal|2601:702:4204:70B0:8C84:628E:2280:B85}}

They also use the same notorious blocked T-Mobile ranges as several other banned users. Otherwise I'm out of range blocks. So, if they return there's a choice of semi-protecting a few hundred pages or an edit filter. As for the articles, if anyone wants to check for recent changes, there's potentially any of the awards pages on the following lists:

• {{la|List of Annie Awards ceremonies}}
• {{la|Nickelodeon Kids' Choice Awards}}
• {{la|Critics' Choice Movie Awards}}
• {{la|MTV Movie & TV Awards}}
• {{la|List of Golden Globe Awards ceremonies}}

(ping to a couple of possibly interested editors: 123) -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 17:55, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

Sea Bright, New Jersey. This would ordinarily just be an RSN, but one of the other writers is continually reverting to a source he either wrote himself, and then sourced to it when it was was borrowed intact, or directly plagiarized himself. (Nearly identical, right down to the same spelling error. Details on the talk page.) I'd appreciate some thoughts on the page; to me, the plagiarization or self-sourcing is a real problem. Anmccaff (talk) 17:14, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

:On my way. d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 17:21, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

• On no less than seven occasions over the past week, {{u|Anmccaff}} has removed reliably sourced content from the article, claiming that sources from the Borough of Sea Bright, The New York Times, the State of New Jersey and United States Government are all unreliable:

1. [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sea_Bright,_New_Jersey&diff=778333802&oldid=778316080 May 2],
2. [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sea_Bright,_New_Jersey&diff=778340335&oldid=778337198 May 2],
3. [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sea_Bright,_New_Jersey&diff=778490261&oldid=778348449 May 3],
4. [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sea_Bright,_New_Jersey&diff=778913254&oldid=778910583 May 5],
5. [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sea_Bright,_New_Jersey&diff=779128175&oldid=779122454 May 7],
6. [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sea_Bright,_New_Jersey&diff=779188548&oldid=779174341 May 7] and
7. [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sea_Bright,_New_Jersey&diff=779557236&oldid=779542618 May 9].

• The MO seems to be to make some wild claims, misinterpret sources, purport that his sources are superior and then delete content. The most recent edit today removes sources from [http://mapmaker.rutgers.edu/356/nj_place_names_origin.pdf#page=28 The New Jersey Public Library Commission written in May 1945] and [https://books.google.com/books?id=9V1IAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA278 The Origin of Certain Place Names in the United States] by the United States Government Printing Office in 1905, arguing that a [http://www.app.com/story/news/history/erik-larsen/2016/05/06/wonder-how-your-town-got-its-name-monmouth-county/82427814/ source by a local newspaper reporter] saying "The official explanation is the borough is named after Sea Bright, England. However, there is no Sea Bright, England." debunks those official sources. Additional eyeballs would be appreciated here as it's not clear that Anmccaff is genuinely here to collaborate. Alansohn (talk) 17:38, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
• One thing I know for sure is that [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sea_Bright,_New_Jersey&diff=779562671&oldid=779557236 accusing another editor of "vandalism"] rarely turns out for the best, unless they're actually vandalizing the page. It's a pretty uncivil personal attack. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 17:43, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
• Persistently removing sourced content is vandalism; we have a series of warnings for it. Besides, the word used was "vandalistic", meaning like vandalism. I assume that you're ok with the personal attacks claiming [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sea_Bright,_New_Jersey&diff=778913254&oldid=778910583 "plagiarism"]?{{pb}}On several occasions, as in [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sea_Bright,_New_Jersey&diff=778341686&oldid=778340335 this edit on May 2], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sea_Bright,_New_Jersey&diff=778342462&oldid=778341686 this second edit on May 2], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sea_Bright,_New_Jersey&diff=778348449&oldid=778342462 this third edit on May 2], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sea_Bright,_New_Jersey&diff=779196492&oldid=779192016 this edit on May 7] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sea_Bright,_New_Jersey&diff=779562671&oldid=779557236 this edit on May 9 (today)], I have added reliable and verifiable sources and / or updated the text to address concerns discussed at the talk page. All of the edits by {{u|Anmccaff}} have removed content; not once has he added sources or modified the text to address his concerns. Alansohn (talk) 17:56, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

:::As mentioned already, this page appears to be based on self-sourcing or plagiarism. You have cited as a reference something probably derived from your own Wiki edit, but, if not, that you lifted outright unsourced...i.e. plagiarized. That's a bad thing. The NYT source appears, frankly, to be taken directly from wiki and word-smithed; the order of the assertions it makes is exactly the same. Again, as mentioned above, there's a real question whether these -are- reliable sources; local governments and amateur historians (and some real ones, truth be told) are notorious for vectoring local folklore as fact, and real estate sections seldom have the heft of the papers they are attached to...but, as I said, that's more for RSN, and later. Anmccaff (talk) 17:48, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

::::As mentioned above, it's apparent that you believe that you have privileged access to "truth", able to determine that the Borough of Sea Bright, the LDS Ensign magazine and The New York Times are all false, but a reporter from the Asbury Park Press is unquestionably true. Alansohn (talk) 17:52, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

:::::Umm, no. As I said, that's a matter for RSN. What is a matter for here is using a reference which either you had to know was based on Wiki since you wrote it yourself, or lifting a big chunk of words intact, right down to a misspelling, without crediting them..i.e. "plagiarism." Anmccaff (talk) 18:02, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

:{{tq|Persistently removing sourced content is vandalism}} No, it's not. Full stop. Vandalism is "....editing (or other behavior) deliberately intended to obstruct or defeat the project's purpose, which is to create a free encyclopedia, in a variety of languages, presenting the sum of all human knowledge." Emphasis in original.

:Also, the claims of plagiarism seem pretty well evinced, to me. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 18:27, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

{{Clear}}

{{atop| Indeffed for possibly third place lamest sock attempt ever. d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 15:08, 13 May 2017 (UTC)}}

{{see also|Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Migueldbravo}}

Yesterday, {{user|Hmains}} informed me of [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ARightCowLeftCoast&type=revision&diff=779967317&oldid=779652236 contentious editing] occurring at {{la|List of Cuban Americans}}. I reviewed the recent editing history, and saw that no WP:3RR had occurred; it appeared to be a slow moving editing war, even though Hmains can argue that it is reversion of vandalism as the added content failed WP:VER (more specifically WP:LISTBIO) and falls under WP:BURDEN. Hmains informed Miguelbravo multiple times on the editor's talk page of the issues with the adding individuals to the list who do not have stand-alone article, or can be verified to fall within the scope of the list: [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Migueldbravo&diff=779131312&oldid=778401211 1], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Migueldbravo&diff=779203029&oldid=779135014 2], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Migueldbravo&diff=779268675&oldid=779249641 3], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Migueldbravo&diff=779704123&oldid=779270814 4], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Migueldbravo&diff=779800161&oldid=779704123 5], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Migueldbravo&diff=779964107&oldid=779800161 6]. No discussion has been started on the talk page of the article in question. I [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:RightCowLeftCoast&diff=779968439&oldid=779967317 informed] Hmains to contact me the next time WP:NLIST was not met, and was [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ARightCowLeftCoast&type=revision&diff=780036562&oldid=779974586 later notified]. I reviewed the [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_Cuban_Americans&type=revision&diff=780035378&oldid=780009276 edits] by Miguelbravo, and found they failed WP:VER; one addition Teller (magician) did not fall within the WP:SCOPE of the stand alone list, as no language or reference in the [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Teller_(magician)&oldid=775842403 article] verifies that the individual is a Cuban American. Therefore, I [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_Cuban_Americans&diff=780098819&oldid=780035378 reverted] the edits, and left a notice on Miguelbravo's [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Migueldbravo&diff=780099137&oldid=779964107 talk page], requesting the editor take their content dispute to the stand alone list's talk page. Almost immediately, the content was [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_Cuban_Americans&diff=next&oldid=780098819 restored], and this uncivil [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:RightCowLeftCoast&diff=780101941&oldid=780099281 message] was left on my talk page. I implore an admin to look at the actions of the editor Miguelbravo.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 00:24, 13 May 2017 (UTC)

• {{user|Hmains}} and RightCowLeftCoast are removing Cuban American added to the Cuban American List and not assisting in growing and adding to wikipedia which is the purpose of our organization. I requested assistance in created the pages and link but they both refuse to aid and vandalize my edits and the article. This is becoming harassing and bullying and our community should be about building and helping. The additions I made are notable Cuban Americans many billionaire and multi millionaires in business and entertainment but they keep removing instead of fixing and adding. Could you please help me?— Preceding unsigned comment added by Migueldbravo (talk • contribs) 17:41, 12 May 2017 (PDT) (UTC)
• a. please sign your messages. b. their edits aren't vandalism: see WP:VANDAL. c. such lists typically and by convention link to articles--so, no article, no entry. Drmies (talk) 00:47, 13 May 2017 (UTC)
• Also, kindly stop insulting other editors by calling them racists. If you continue you will be blocked. Drmies (talk) 00:50, 13 May 2017 (UTC)
• And {{U|Migueldbravo}} is now blocked for edit warring. Drmies (talk) 00:51, 13 May 2017 (UTC)

:{{edit conflict}}{{ping|Miguelbravo}}

:{{quote|...which is the purpose of our organization|[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=780106471&oldid=780106330 diff]}}

:Who is "our organization"?

:{{quote|Removal just keep creating more work for us.|[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:RightCowLeftCoast&diff=780101941&oldid=780099281 diff]}}

:Who is "us:?--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 00:59, 13 May 2017 (UTC)

• A WP:DUCK by the name of {{checkuser|JoseMBravo}} has just quacked its way into the article history. Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Migueldbravo Murph9000 (talk) 01:02, 13 May 2017 (UTC)
• I think we've handled this at SPI. Katie^talk 03:59, 13 May 2017 (UTC)

{{abot}}

{{Clear}}

{{atop| Dax given a Block of Indefinite Length for legal threats. BLP will be applied,a nd so will DOLT to a lesser extent. d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 15:04, 13 May 2017 (UTC) }}

• {{userlinks|DaxCastle}}
• {{pagelinks|Francesco Schettino}}
• {{pagelinks|Costa Concordia disaster}} (related, but not directly involved)

Edit summary:

{{talkquote|text=Deleted false and misleading information about the person's birthplace. Please note, the author of the false information will be found and sued.|by=DaxCastle|ts=02:12, 13 May 2017 (UTC)|oldid=780115918}}

That seems like a very clear breach of WP:NLT to me.

Murph9000 (talk) 03:14, 13 May 2017 (UTC)

: Blocked per NLT. Katie^talk 03:36, 13 May 2017 (UTC)

::@Katie, thanks. Murph9000 (talk) 03:38, 13 May 2017 (UTC)

:::The block is 100% justified as the legal threat was clear-cut. However, the blocked editor is correct on the facts. Those reading this thread should watchlist this BLP to help ensure factual accuracy according to reliable sources. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 03:46, 13 May 2017 (UTC)

::::Indeed, I just wasn't going to muddy the waters with extra details until the core issue was addressed, as being correct does not influence that policy (other than WP:DOLT). Yes, it looks like the article was previously wrong (but I don't see likely success from a defamation action), and this editor appears to have corrected it. That's going by the single source to The Daily Telegraph, without any unreasonable interpretation of it. This article may well see some negative action over the next few weeks, given the news about him losing on final appeal and entering prison (on May 12, sourced in the article to BBC & Reuters, carefully verified, before anyone has a BLP-fit here). I've already reverted a couple of tabloid-worthy nicknames from it (which quite probably could be sourced, but are still not really appropriate for an encyclopedia arcticle related to a disaster). Murph9000 (talk) 03:59, 13 May 2017 (UTC)